The Commander Series Forum

In the assault example (page 34 of the rule book) the attacking Nationals have to hit on 6 because the Republicans are dug in.

I understand that because it is clearly stated in the Field Defence rules (page 47).

But as the Nationals are approaching the Republican shoot at them suppressing one group. Now the rules on page 47 say that units in a dugout can't see out so how do they manage to shoot out and suppress the unit.

Also, in reality how would you attack dug in troops. If I understand the rules, only one attacking unit can be in contact getting their full set of dice. Other units can support but they only add one dice.

In the book the attacking unit very conveniently throws three 6's for the example, but in reality with the defenders hitting on 4,5,6 and the attackers having to hit on 6 I can't imagine how you could successfully assault dug in troops.

Cheers,

Nigel

As I understand it, dug in means occupying pre-prepared trenches. Dug outs are deep excavations that provide overhead cover from artillery etc, but can't be fired out of.

Attacking troop dug in in trenches is the whole nub of early 20th century warfare. WW1, WW2, Korean and Vietnam experience suggests that massed wave attacks by infantry are doomed to failure or at least a huge cost in human life. So, how you solve the problem of attacking dug in troops is what will make you a Rommel* or a Haig* (*insert favourite generals here). There have been lots of suggestions, hit them with artillery, flamethrower armed engineers, aircraft, tank fire, whatever, to get a suppression on them and anyone else who can fire or support, then send in the infantry. Alternatively, build up hoards of cheap conscripts or penal battalions and charge, but be prepared to loose a lot.

Cheers

Andy

Margin ? (French WWI General) - what ever you do you lose a lot of men.

The best method seems to be plaster the area you want to attack with indirect fire, enough and you will supress the defenders, then assault with lots of support. The trick is to survive the 1st round.

IanS

In reality? Artillery -mainl mortars are your friend. If you don't have them, just speed up with a lot of tanks, and go through the dug in troops, or if you want, turn around a few times on their head They will be in deep shit/under a lot of earth..

"turn around a few times on their head They will be in deep shit/under a lot of earth."

More than likely, they will be safe and secure hiding in their trench, using your immobilized tank with a thrown track as overhead cover.

The best way to attack dug in troops is from the flank or preferably behind. A good general only attacks a weak point. Attacking head on means you cannot or aren't smart enough to find a way around them. A frontal attack requires preparation and a combined arms approach. If you can't find a weak point, create one. You need to hit your target with sufficient direct and indirect firepower to make them keep their heads down, suppressed in game terms. That probably won't happen in a single game term. Use fires and smoke to isolate your target from supports, then close assault with a well supported powerful unit and with reserves for exploitation close behind. Remember, you don't loose victory points for overkill.

In my experience attacking dug-in (or town-dwelling) troops in xWC is extremely difficult, if not impossible. The hit only on a six, suppress only on a six requirement makes them extraordinarily tough - even if close assaulting.

While I agree that in reality and in many other games the idea of keeping their heads down, supressing them and then close assaulting is right, in xWC it often doesn't work in any game-meaningful timeframe because it is very hard to get those suppressions, and because when you close assault they still get the benefit of cover and you still need to hit on a six.

One suggestion if Pete is listening would be to make defending troops not benefit from cover in a close assault situation, even in the first round of close assault. I think this would encourage the realistic tactics others have outlined. You would have an incentive to go into close assault - you can actually kill something dug-in.

Otherwise you're in the situation of pounding away and trying to get huge numbers of dice from indirect and direct HE fire in order to roll those sixes. Maybe this is what was intended - but it doesn't make for a great gaming experience.

As a point of clarification, I always play with keeping hits. I have never understood hit removal at platoon and squad level. Hits mean vehicles and men are getting holes punched in them. Those holes don't just disappear in a few minutes of game time. Artillery against dug in troops is attritional. If a game mechanic doesn't permit the use of real tactics, the mechanic is flawed.

We seem to manage successful close assaults, just they can be very costly.

I view hit removal at the end of the turn as representing NCOs and Junior Officers reorganising the survivors of the hits into smaller, but still effective units. Time and again in real world battle reports this seems to be one of the key factors in keeping units in action after first contact with the enemy.

All the tactics discussed here so far work with the rules as written. If you are attacking a line of dug in infantry, isolate a small part of the line with smoke and hit the target area with artillery. Move up with a combined force of armour, infantry, infantry guns, infantry support weapons, mortars, assault engineers or specialist armour if you have it and direct fire the hell out of the dug in units. If you suppress them send in the infantry, if you don't, it's not worth sending in the infantry. As Ian observes, if you survive the first round of CA you are in the trenches with them and both sides hit on 4s. Once the infantry get in to the first position, it is then possible to roll the rest up from the flanks, as Cold Steel observes. If they turn and face they lose the benefit of dug in and are vulnerable to all the other fire you have. For a successful assault on a dug in infantry line you will need at least a local superiority of 3:1, otherwise sit in your positions and wait.

All those books and eye witness testimony tell us that close assaults fail against well prepared/manned/supplied positions (Somme, various Russin eastern front assaults in WW2, Chinese human wave attacks in Korea and NVA attacks at Khe Sahn, to name but a few). My local vicar was a Bren gunner in Korea and his life was changed forever by the huge number of men he killed (he estimated into the hundreds in less than 36 hours).

Definitely can't agree to losing the first round of benefit from being dug in, otherwise why dig in. It's tough enough keeping infantry alive when they are on the move. If they lose the ability to be dug in on the defensive they might as well stay at home.

Cheers, Andy

Hi Nigel.
Yes..Dug-Outs are an interesting one...useful to protect against artillery etc ...but pretty much only that...and of course only for infantry and MGs.

P46 confirms that only one unit can CA a unit in a Dug-Out..assuming that only one unit can contact the entrance at a time. This restriction doesn't apply to other field defenses - as p31 Resolution rules confirm, multiple units can CA a single enemy at once....however I agree that field defenses are generally too tough (and too cheap if you play with points)...

You don't need to change the rest of the rules ...just the defense capabilities :

Suggest the following changes accordingly; to both direct and indirect fire -
: To Hit. Save. Points Cost
Hasty Trench : +1. 6. 10
Fixed Trench : 6. 5. 10
Gun Pit : +1. 5. 20
AFV Pit : +1. +1. 30
Dug Out : -. 4. 20
Pill Box : 6. 4. 40
Bunker : 6. 4. 50
Command Post : - - 50

Fixed Trench can only be used in Fixed defence scenarios.

Plus:
Shell Scrapes : (+1 To Hit, No Save) Represent easily dug shallow fox holes that provide a small amount of improved protection.
(a) Can be prepared during a game - providing suitable terrain - takes 1 complete stationary turn..no other activity permitted during that turn.
(b) Can be prepared by and accomodate 1 command, infantry or infantry support unit (MG or Mortar only).
(c) Requires a successful command roll to prepare. Preparation can trigger opportunity fire - unit gets no benefit from scrape until it is completed at end of the turn.
(d) Cant build if unit is suppressed
(e) Does not offer concealment or prevent fall-back
(f) Defense is lost if unit moves out of scrape - cannot be re-used.

If we're keeping the cover save for the defender, I can't justify the attacker not getting a similar cover save if they are in cover when conducting the assault.

This seems to be adding insult to injury.

I think we've strayed beyond the original post. However, not being ex-army I can only go by reading accounts in the literature. These seem to suggest that troops in trenches, firing pits, revetments, etc, only expose head and shoulders to fire. Troops attacking them have to plod, stroll kicking footballs, stagger under 60lb backpacks, run like hell, scream banzai or urrahhh, or whatever they believe will make them bullet proof and cross the open ground in front of the trenches. This assumes the defenders aren't jerks who've dug themselves in where the enemy can jump into the trench without exposing themselves, in which case the officer in command would probably be shot for dereliction of duty. Having exposed themselves to fire from the trenches, there is a limit to what flesh and blood can achieve against rapid fire from magazine fed and belt fed weapons, not to mention grenades, missiles, and other nasties.

So attackers in the open (hit on 4, 5 and 6) and defenders in cover (hit on 6) seems spot on to me. If the attackers survive the first round then they are amongst the defenders and both sides are in melee, both in the open (hit on 4, 5 and 6). The dug in cover save I assume represents the ability of troops to temporarily duck below the parapet of the trench, recover their nerve and get back in the action. Troops attacking that lose their nerve tend to run headlong away from the source of fire and take a heck of a lot more effort to rally.

Basically, you can't use infantry on their own to root out another dug in infantry unit. It isn't done in the real world or in the game. Real world tactics mean you keep the defenders heads down with indirect and direct fire, isolate them and crack the line at a weak point. It might not be convenient, but it's meant to emphasise how difficult it is to break in to a defended built up area or trench line. It focusses the mind on whether you really need to take the position or if it can be bypassed and mopped up later. All contributes to the feelings of friction and frustration experienced by a commander.

In games I've played, successful close assaults on dug in units have almost always been on suppressed units, whereas assaults on unsuppressed units most commonly ended with the attackers eliminated. To me the game mechanics reward real world all-arms tactics and punish infantry assaults.

I do like the idea of being able to dig in during a game. I've never seen anything published on how long it takes infantry to dig in but I'd assume it takes at least 30 minutes to an hour to form proper fox holes, that will provide enouh cover to make a difference, which is what 2-4 full game turns?

Interesting debate, might be best in the house rules section.

Cheers, Andy

Andy - it's no quantifiable. Depends on the ground and how hard it is, also tools available. In theory you should be able to prepare a position in about 2 hours, overhead cover included. Add another hour for wire and defensive mines and cammo. Lots of this can be done simultaneously if you have the man=power.

IanS

Thanks Ian. Knew you'd know!!

So what's that equate to in game terms, 8 turns to dig in and another 4 to add wire/mines/cammo for a unit digging itself in. Cut these by half if there is an engineer unit available to help. What about mechanised kit like minelayers, trench diggers and CEVs, would they reduce the time again?

Cheers, Andy

I think it all comes back to my feeling that suppression or keeping the heads down is too difficult to achieve in the RAW. I absolutely appreciate that is how it is done and I'd love it if xWC actually facilitated that approach.

Personal experience and blisters Andy...

IanS

My garden needs turning over. Not too deep and definitely no mines or barbed wire, the Mahonia does the job of a Zariba. Say an hour or two. When can you pop round.

Cheers, Andy

No problem, £100 per hour.

Emplacing Barbed wire, time depends on how you want to do it. Lose coils about 5 min, a 3 coil high fence held by scaffolding poles - may be an hour per 100m.

Mines - hand dug, Anti-personel, depends on the type - the kiwi (nickname for a thing the size of a shoe polish tin) is surface scattered, so how long it takes to throw em out. The other AP mine - the "elsie" is placed with a good left heel, then armed. Say 2-3 minutes per, but not on roads.

A/T mines - by hand - same sort of time as digging in. Mechanical layers move at 2-3km per hour, laying a 1 mine wide strip, say 3-4 vehicles laying, with other troops putting up the surrounding fence. The real limitation is the number of mines available.

IanS

Cheers Ian. Presumably vehicle laid mines aren't likely to be concealed so a stand/platoon could lay a marked minefield the width of the stand and up to 20cm long per turn. Is it likely that the Soviet trench digger would be able to dig a similar amount of trench?

Cheers, Andy

Yes in both cases. Note that British (and I assume most other western armies) have JCB's [Painted green] which should be able to dig a trench in about 20 mins, Ripon TA in 1974 broke one.

The vehicle laid mines look like a ploughed field, so not exactly marked.

IanS

I understand that it is difficult to attack a trench - the attackers are in the open until they reach the trench whilst the defenders present small targets.

BUT the problem I have is only being able to attack a trench with one unit - so you end up with 1 unit hitting on 4,5,6 versus 1 unit hitting on 6. Yes there is support but that only adds an extra dice when in reality it would be keeping the heads of the those in the trenches down.

Also you would attack a fortified position with more troops, so the first franks would go down but the following ranks would reach the trench. This doesn't seem to be modelled - instead a single unit has to stand and take it. If they get defeated then the following rank can step up and start taking it.

Cheers,

Nigel

One in the front, one if the flank, plenty of supports and you hit loadsa dice really quick. Still, it ain't easy. I'm tempted more & more to make suppression automatic for off table arty against units in cover... "it's coming down heavy, I ain't getting out me hole!"

We use auto-suppression for units dug-in that take any hits (after saves are made) from artillery/IDF.

Don't have the rule book in front of me, but can't you line up a column of infantry stands and order in the first to close assault with the others following up behind. If/when the first stand is eliminated, a second order will get the next stand in, a third, and so on. Eventually there will be enough accumulated hits to wear down the defenders. Don't have my stats head on but I suspect three or four successful orders in the turn will eliminate the defender through accumulated hits, or possibly not. I suspect the trade off of a company of infantry to a dug in platoon is about right - you'll be recreating the Somme or Khe Sahn but it will give the right result. Anything else won't give a historical outcome.

Bitter experience suggests that you can hit dug in infantry with all the artillery in the world and if the prepared positions are good enough with overhead cover, then the defending infantry stand a good chance of being able to emerge when the artillery stops to let in the attacking infantry and shoots the hell out of them. That seems to be the experience of the Somme, D-day, Korea, Vietnam and others. Of course there are exceptions, such as some of the whirlwind artillery strikes in WW1 and things like the 1000 bomber strikes for Goodwood and Caen, where the attackers round up stunned and shell shocked troops by the hundreds (presumably equals suppression in game terms). However, these seem to be the extremes not the norms.

Anyway, whatever works for each player group is fine but for me it shouldn't be a walkover to stick a bit of arty on a dug in unit and roll it up with an infantry stand, there are lots of things that could go wrong and mean it's a bloodbath for the attacker.

Cheers, Andy

You could always try gassing them.

IanS

Andy - yep, you can try that and try successive orders to go in. It's not easy... and it's why you need to suppress the defence first, smoke it as well so it's isolated, and for preference crack a hole somewhere and then do it from the flank/rear to minimise return fire. Wipe out the support weapons then winkle the infantry out.

On the bitter experience - absolutely - to me, that's represented by "can you get the orders right", suppress > round up a few hits > go in > go in with another if needed until you get those hits. It ain't easy, and very often you get the situation you describe whereby the defender recovers enough (turn break/recover suppressions/hits) that you bounce.

Even suppressed infantry in trenches/BUA are a sod to shift.

Ian - well, in CWC I prefer double napalm/thermobarics, auto suppress followed by auto suppress and dead And then you can drive over the position without worrying about pesky persistent agents

It's about the only way to deal with Abrams and Chally II even in the open field unless you like losing whole battalions to one tank platoon...

Gas wuz a in joke.......

IanS