The Commander Series Forum

Hi,
I wonder if anyone can clarify orders by one HQ to different formations. Page 17 states that an HQ can start afresh with a second formation after completing orders to the 1st - fine. Page 42 states that formations are composed of one command unit and any number of other units. Question is how can one HQ command more than one formation? or is this allowed only to flexible/normal doctrine? We have been interpreting this as meaning a "second group of units" rather than a formation? Taking this to extremes - can an HQ order one unit, then start again with a second and then a third and so on? This certainly might help my Russians and early brits get a bit more active, even if only in penny packets!

Hi Orosav,

As I am a bit rusty my advice may not be 100% - here goes.

I play historical TO&Es so a company or a battalion might be might my initial formation, or group of bases. So I, like you, interpret formations as groups of bases.

If I begin with a 9xINF, 1xHMG and 1xIG, then I could split them and Command one group (sub-formation?) of 6 INF to move forward and the other group of 3INF and 1HMG and 1IG to shoot.

I could do this as ONE (order=) command and if all in same distance then I would only lose any bonus (such as Russians sometimes get) for all in formation doing same thing.

IF I want to avoid losing this bonus I could order all to do same thing each command / order: all move, or all fire.

However IF I choose to create two groups / sub-formations and give them orders separately, so my 6INF first and none to the others: I must stick with this first group till I judge they are completed AND IF I fail trying to do this then my HQ has finished and no further orders to anyone!

So if I begin on CV8 and make a successful command roll and then another on CV7, I could abandon this first group and go to second and begin again on CV8, so long as I have not failed. (Ignoring other factors like distance.)

Of course you cannot claim bonus for all in formation doing same thing if you make them into two formations / subgroups (well thats how I would play it)!

So I could split the above example of 9inf and 1HMG and 1IG into 11 sub-formations, but mathematically each time I roll, even starting at CV8, I have a chance of failing and I suppose probability might suggest the more rolls I make then the more likelihood of a fail roll occurring? But I am rusty on my probability maths too!!

Hope this helps,
CarlL

With Flexible any HQ can order any unit, no matter what "formation" they may nominally be in.

E.g. German CO + 3 HQ, six Panzer III, two Pzr IV, four infantry plus a HMG & ATG. The infantry might nominally be in a formation, and the tanks split in two formations at game start.

However when you get into game any of those HQs (and the CO can command any set of those troops at any time, without penalty. Infantry HQ fluffs its roll? Nearest Panzer HQ can have a go, and vice versa.

The same applies to normal doctrine, except if they aren't in the formation set at game start there's a -1 to the roll.

With Rigid Doctrine the HQs can only ever order those units that were in their initial formation set at game start. So under the above example, if HQ1 had the infantry & support weapons, it could never attempt to motivate either group of tanks. HQ2 with three PzIII and one PzrIV could only motivate those units and not the other Panzers or the infantry battalion, and HQ3 could only motivate the four tanks it started with.

The CO can then try to motivate as normal (with the -1 for troops not directly in a formation under it).

However - within the "rigid formation", HQ1 might order three of the infantry stands to move a couple of times to take up a new position. It could then stop, and order the HMG and ATG to open fire a couple of times (going back to its full CV), then stop again and order the other three infantry to move (again reverting to its original CV). All depending on it not fluffing any roll, of course!

With the +1 for Rigid - as Carl says this only applies if every unit in the initial game start formation does the same thing. So in my example above, you would never get the +1 for any of those rolls. But if HQ1 ordered all the infantry and both support weapons to move, or all to fire at the same time on the same roll you would.

thanks for your replies. Both comments were pretty much as I expected. Confusion arose due to the rules definition of a formation - which is one command plus any number of units, so by implication a second "formation" must automatically belong to a seperate HQ? (suspect I was slipping into over pedantic mode here!). Using the "group of units/sub formation" definition seems to be in the spirit of the rules and works well so happy to go with that - just wondered if I had got it wrong by doing this!
It's great to get this advice, so next question following soon!

This is an issue which has come up with regard to the +1 on command rolls with _Rigid doctrine before. I'd thought it was more in line with the wording on the battlegroup generator, which implies you have your formation set at game start but the +1 applies so long as whatever portion of that formation you are ordering on that role does the same thing.

Hence a Soviet rifle battalion could order its mortar, HMG and ATG to all to fire with a +1 a couple of times, then switch to moving the rifle platoons, and get the bonus for all the orders as each group were doing the same thing.

Pete explicitly clarified that wasn't the case, and that the +1 applies only if the whole formation from game start does the same thing. Means I now need to split out dissimilar troops under different HQs more, but hey. It's all cheap AA

Pete has clarified this a few times - but the +1 applies when ALL the units in the fixed formation do the same thing - not merely a portion of it - As TP states at the end. It does exclude recce/AA/supressed and dead. BUT if you want all to fire and some are out of weapon range then it doesn't apply - since they can't all do the same thing.

In practice: your T-34s have a HQ, the desant troops have a HQ. Don't mix troops types too much within a fixed formation - Otherwise you'll never get the +1 bonus!

I've seen these clarifications too. I think it makes sense that the tactically rigid armies can start with a single order for the formation, but the command and control won't let them micro manage the way the flexible armies can. Answer is more command units in the front line and use the +1 for moving up your reserves. Leads me to another question - why are British armies allowed more HQ's than anyone else?

Problem is (esp. early & mid war) the Rigid armies really, really need that +1. The low CVs and the short initiative range are a nasty double-punch.

Still the HQs are cheap, I guess.