The Commander Series Forum

I was looking in the book and it has a battlegroup selection for mid eastern front that says.

Cannot Mix Pz-III/Pz-IV and Panther - Choose one type only.

Just to clarify, does this mean that I'm restricted to all types of one of those listed or only one of those types.

I'e Can I have Pz IV, 75mm Kurz and/or Pz IV, 75mm Lang in the same battlegroup.

I'm thinking 'and' rather than 'or' but I don't have a clue where to start looking for Real World examples to work it out.

Help please.

There were 53 Pz IV Kurz available at Kursk in July'43 but these were spread over 13 Panzer and Panzer Grenadier Divisions so were by this point inthe war a rare sight. The highest number (9) were serving with the 20th Panzer Division, by way of comparison this Division had 40 of the long barrelled version. Pz IV Kurz become very rare after this point but some still show up in 1944 (21st Panzer Division). Obviously they are more common earlier in 1943 but were being replaced by the long barrelled version.

The Panthers in 2 battalions (51 & 52) were all grouped together under Panzer Regiment 39 which was attached to Panzer Grenadier Division Grossdeutschland (GD). They did operate with the Divisions panzer regiment (under the command of Panzer Brigade 10) so you could in theory have early model Panthers, Pz II, Pz III, Pz IV, Tiger I and Flammpanzers in the same battlegroup. I have the book on GD's panzer regiment so could check if they were intermixed (IIRC they were).

If it helps GD had 4 Pz II, 1 Pz III(kz), 20 Pz III(lg), 2 Pz III(7.5), 5 Pz IV(kz), 63 Pz IV(lg), 15 Tiger I, 8 Command Panzers and 14 Flammpanzer all of which were deployed in 2 battalions and 1 Tiger company. Note that the Tiger company was overstrength. Both of the attached Panther battalions had been issued 96 Panthers each, 3 were issued to the regimental HQ and a further 5 to the regimental recce platoon. 2 Panthers were lost due to engine fires on the approach march to the battlefield, the rest suffered from a high breakdown rate with the total number of operational tanks dropping by 80% after 2 days in combat.

The first Panthers deployed that were an integral part of a panzer regiment were those of SS Panzer Regiment 2 in August '43 and Panzer Regiment 23 in September. Some were also deployed to Italy in August with SS Panzer Grenadier Division LSSAH.

Richard

It depends what you are covering - mixed battalions of Pz-IIIs/IVs and Panthers didn't exist as far as official TO&Es are concerned, the Panthers were in their own battalion.

"I'e Can I have Pz IV, 75mm Kurz and/or Pz IV, 75mm Lang in the same battlegroup."

Yes, the text means you can't have Panthers in the same BG as Pz-IIIs/IVs.

Thank you folks.

I think I need to settle in and find some reading material to get some proper OOB and actions set up to game.

It's always well worth the effort doing some research on the units you'd like to portray on the tabletop, it can sometimes be frustrating when you find conflicting info or no info what so ever but you never know what you else might come across.

You'll find that German units are often different to the official TO&E or have the vehicles specified officially but mix them differently. A good example of that is Panzer Regiment 11 in March 1943 which mixed Pz III(lg), Pz III(7.5) and long barrelled Pz IV's in the same platoon.

Richard