The Commander Series Forum

Hallo Pete I have a question for you.
There is a tank that contact a minefield, stop at the border and roll one dice (result 2) for movement in cm. inside the minefield and for the attacks.
Now if near this tank there is a engineer troop as they can clear the minefield? Can I put it in contact behind the tank or can I put it in front of the tank? or I cannot do nothing?
If the tank inside the minefield (2 cm.) wants to retreat,in reverse mode, it must to take 2 attacks?
Thank.

Yes they can clear the minefield, but they would need to start from the edge of the minefield.

The tank would take additional attacks if it reversed, unless the engineers had cleared the mines.

If the tank turned around on the spot, would it take any attacks?
Once turned around, the front of the unit could be out of the minefield, if it then moved forward to be out of the minefield, would it take attacks? This would mean possibly exposing the rear flank to the enemy. We play that you take the number of attacks that you move measured from the front edge.
If a unit had crossed a minefield and now had its front on the far edge of the minefield, when it moves out of the minefield I hadn't expected it to take any attacks but if you have to include the distance the back edge travelled in the minefield then bigger/deeper bases will take move attacks than shallower units. Is this what was intended?

Excuse me Pete I have another question because with some friends we are playing one section of Kursk battle and there are minefields on the ground.
There is a minefield 5 cm deep. A tank enter for 2 cm (so 2 attacks).With a successive order the tank move 10 cm out of the minefield; how many attacks hit the tanks? 3 cm ( the rest of the minefield) or all the base lenght of the tanks (3 cm for minefield and 5cm for base-size of the tank (all the base lenght must be out of the minefield)?

Leonardo, I guess with the lack of answers the only thing to do is to agree with your opponents how you want to handle it.
You could try different ways for different games to see what you prefer.
We've gone for measuring from the front edge so in your example the unit could move 10cm and take only 3 attacks. We use 6mm models so our base depths are not very deep so even if we used the base depth as well it would normally only add a further 2 or 3 attacks. However, those playing in 10mm or larger figures may not want to include base size attacks!
Off course our method would allow the unit to move back out of the minefield without 2 more attacks, but we just accept that.

"If the tank turned around on the spot, would it take any attacks?" - surely yes, it's a platoon of tanks and even one tank could swivel without crossing new ground??

"Once turned around, the front of the unit could be out of the minefield, if it then moved forward to be out of the minefield, would it take attacks?" - again yes surely, otherwise you've invented a way to enter a minefield, but leave it without any chance of hitting mines?

"If a unit had crossed a minefield and now had its front on the far edge of the minefield, when it moves out of the minefield I hadn't expected it to take any attacks but if you have to include the distance the back edge travelled in the minefield then bigger/deeper bases will take move attacks than shallower units. Is this what was intended?" - I think you're right always measure from the front when going forward - but if you're just pivoting the tanks front should stay where it is???

my 2p

This is all getting very over-complicated. Our games club has NEVER had all these issues, even with a huge Kursk game.

Unit advances into minefield. Roll a dice, it goes that distance forwards and takes that many hits. Next command roll (unless dead or suppressed) it either moves forwards or backwards. Again, roll a dice, take hits and move (if still alive!).

Hadn't considered the "turn round on the spot" option, but I guess doing a 3-point turn in a minefield isn't condusive to a long and healthy life. Either push on or go back.

My 3p!

My take is if a vehicle is moving in a mine field then it will take hits. If a tank finds itself in a mine field and survives intial contact my suggestion is to have the tank unit do a full stop and call in the Sappers. However, if Gerry has the field sigted in with AT guns that can cause problems of its own.

"Gerry has the field sigted in with AT guns that can cause problems"

Or it's German tanks and the Poles have covered the minefield with AT guns, arty support - even 40mm bofors!

That's the proper way to use mines! My arse was up round my ears!

You didn't think Poland would be a cake walk...did you?Sounds like you were catching lead by the bucketful.

Polish player was very canny (I have to say that)

Village - each side covered by a minefield. AT/AA/Arty sited centrally behind to cover either flank of the village. PzII's did't last long. Superb game and it really revealed the proper way to use minefields.

The Polish game does sound very interesting and I've no issue with how minefields are used but it sounds as though we've been playing them wrong.
From what has been written it seems that units in minefields take hits all the time any part of their base is in the minefield and it moves. This means that a unit on a 5cm deep base will take a total of 15 attacks crossing straight through a 10cm deep minefield, although hopefully not all in one go! The effect will be to slow us down when we cross minefields, and yes I do know that it would be better if engineers can clear a path first but that is not always an option.
Not an issue, just not what we thought was intended. Proved wrong yet again, and I guess I'll need to read the rules more carefully although as a defender I'm happy

I think you're over thinking it - measure just from the edge that's moving - so straight ahead in a 5cm deep field will get you five hits max, whether you do that 5cm in one go or spend five turns at 1cm each.

If for some reason you decide to get across then turn round and come back you take whatever from crossing on your first move, then however many cm's worth to get out again!

toxicpixie, I'm just applying the guidance Pete gave near the beginning of this thread as thus:
Assuming you move 5cm into a 10cm deep minefield you would take 5 attacks.
Then, on another order you move another 5cm taking another 5 attacks and the front edge of the unit is at the far edge of the minefield.
On a third order you move the unit out of the minefield but if your unit has a 5cm deep base you'll take another 5 attacks and thus you've had 15 attacks. Simple but not what I originally thought!

No, once your front edge is out you're good so far as it reads

The extra attacks from reversing are because you're moving back through the field. You don't 'clear a path' as you go, unless you're engineers actually doing mine clearing

But as there are no penalties for pivoting at any point in your move, you could enter 5cm, pivot 180 and have your front edge on the edge of the minefield, assuming your base is 5cm deep.
Alternatively, if your base is greater than 1cm deep (almost certainly) you could enter just 1cm (either through choice or random in the case of a hidden minefield) then, on another order, pivot 180 degrees and your front edge is already completely outside of the minefield. In fact you could pivot at the end of your first move providing you weren't suppressed and then there wouldn't be any turning whilst in the minefield!
With rules as they are, I see no real difference between being able to pivot and then move out without taking attacks and being able to move in reverse without taking attacks as the rules allow you to move just as fast backwards as you do forwards. In fact I don't think the rules do allow you any reverse movement, you simply pivot and move but we have a house rule that allows you to move at half speed in reverse so that you don't have to turn your rear to the enemy everytime you want to withdraw.
Of course, this makes minefields more dangerous as they should always be covered by fields of fire.

Again, too much thought - just measure the distance the front edge moves each time. If you're lucky enough to make it out without copping anymore hits then good for you. If not, just suck it up

Leader - I'm assuming that you're concerns revolve around people pivoting in order to escape the minefield. i.e. just pick up their model, turn it 180 degs and now their front is outside the minefield?

You're right that the rules don't cover this in detail. i think that you have to come down on th side of utter sense and state that if a unit makes ANY type of move in a minefield then it MUST take attacks. How you adjuticate the number is up to you. BUt pivoting CANNOT be a way to escape a minefield - that's top cheese!

Turn the tank 180 degs - take X attacks
place front of tank where front WAS - then move and take attacks!

I haven't had a chance to play a game for a while but as it happens one of my last games had quite a few minefields in and we judged that for the marked minefields the process was as follows:
Unit halts on contact with minefield. Next order the unit moved 5cm into minefield taking 5 attacks. If the unit was not suppressed it then moved on a third order, but generally as the unit would have taken 2-3 hits from the earlier move, the unit moved only 2-4cm i.e. whatever ensured the minefield could not KO the unit. This placed units at somewhere between 5 and 9cm into a 10cm deep minefield. I don't remember any unit getting this far and not being suppressed.
Next turn, a new order moved all of the units through the rest of the minefield and beyond taking between 1 and 5 attacks depending on have much of the minefield was still in front of them. We ignored the depth of the bases.
Where units were suppressed by these final attacks we judged the unit to be suppressed at the end of its move and not at some point in the minefield.
You have probably noted the lack of enemy fire affecting this movement but a cunning attack plan identified a flaw in the enemy defence plan that failed to cover a part of the minefields with ATGs!
Sometimes a couple of units ended a move within the minefield but right at the far edge. Their next order permitted them to move up to their full move without suffering any attacks from the minefield although we did apply the -1 command penalty.
Sometimes a unit was unable to advance forward because there was a suppressed unit directly in front and so we permitted the unit to pivot then move with attacks as normal.
Finally, there was at least one occasion where a unit stumbled into a hidden minefield and then, on its next order, chose to withdraw back out of the minefield before trying to work around the end of the minefield. However, I cannot remember whether we imposed attacks on the withdrawing unit, hence my interest in this thread.
We certainly didn't impose attacks for the tail end of a unit but if you are going to impose attacks when a unit withdraws then it would seem sensible to also impose attacks on the tail end of a unit i.e. if the front of the unit is out of the minefield but its rear edge is say 2cm with the minefield then it'll take 2 attacks when it moves out.
Of course, if the minefield is covered by fire, then most of this moving around a minefield is not likely to happen.

Units certainly take hits from the mines as they withdraw. I'd avoid imposing attacks in the tail. The base depth is to accomodate the model. A troop of 3 tanks would usually be in line in a battle, so the depth is a fake parameter in this.

My 2p