The Commander Series Forum

Now here is a question that I am sure someone has the answer to:

The German Army list for Africa does not list the Pz II as a recce vehicle, whereas the German Early Eastern Front list does.

Any ideas? I would use a Pz II for recce if I could get away with it.

Steve

you should be able too. By the time the Afrika Korp was deployed the Germans knew the Pz. II was already pass it's prime. I see no reason to use one of the Older models of Pz. II as a Recce vehicle.

Benghzi Handicap shows the Panzer Regiments with recon Pz.I and Pz.II platoons in the Rgt. HQ. Recon battalions had scout cars.

The two panzer divisions at gazala 1942 had two recon pzIIF platoons for their panzer regiments (per command post quarterly #9) with a motorcycle recon platoon for each of the rifle regiments and division HQ. 90th light division had a recon motorcycle platoon at division and at regiment levels.

Were they were definately used for Recce though? Don't know enough about AK to say myself but don't want this to lead to Recce Pz IV and Panthers in Normandy

Personally I prefer my recce under armed and therefore as cheap as possible - I want them recc'ing, not fighting!

If someone's willing to pay more for a Panther as recce that's fine by me

"If someone's willing to pay more for a Panther as recce that's fine by me"... Quite!

I wonder with the PzII how much of it is actually HQ protection and liaison type duties?

That's pretty much my point Dave the PzIV's and Panthers did not get used as recce just regular tanks AFAIK and i suspect the PzII's were used as you suggest. Real recce was done by the Aufklarungs Abteilung and the various motorcycle platoons IMHO. Considering the impact recce units can have in the game I would be reluctantto see additional types.

I think that you're spot on. I'm always aware of the real strength of DAK tank units. In Dal McGuirks book on the Afrika Korps he quotes a Pz Lt who's really chuffed because he now commands the strongest company in the regt - 4 PzII and 4 PzIII!

I've never read of them being used as recce IN NORTH AFRICA and the platoons German title was simply "Leichte Panzer Zug", i.e. "Light", just as the normal PzII/PzIII company was referred to as "leichte" - nothing to do with recce at all.

But what is the explanation for the difference in the two lists?

In Russia Pz II can be used as recce, but not the desert.

I have just bought some PSC Panzer IIIs and IVs, enough to make a battalion for mainly North Afrika (but I expect them to see service against the Russians as well), and am thinking ahead about what else to buy. Ideally, I want stuff that I can use in both theatres if possible.

Steve

Well, you'll need PzIIs for North Africa anyway?

Personally, I'd be inclined to stick with 222s etc for Russia (virtually the same stats). I don't know Pete's justification for the Recce PzII in Russia - not my field.

As far as I know, PzII was used as a recon vehicle, because wheeled vehicles were less effective in crossing the muddy russian country side. Otherwise they could stil have used their originally fitted recce.

I suspect the reason for the difference in the lists is that North Africa was a sideshow compared to the Eastern Front, so the bulk of the kit went east. This meant that those in the desert had to make do with what they had which meant filling out the battalions with Pz-IIs, leaving none for recce.

Greetings

The panzer battalions of 5.leichte and 15.panzer divisions had the right proportions of Pzkw III and IV for an early 1941 panzer division [except for one vessel lost en route?] so were not 'filled out' with light tanks.

Regards

Edward

I think it's not a question of excessive Panzer II's being used to "fill out" units, but rather what is the exact role of the Leichte Zug at battalion HQ.

As a parallel: British tank regts in NWE have Humber scout cars at RHQ. Scout = recce? But they're just "runabouts" for the RHQ staff, purely for liaison work.

Hi All

In "Tank Combat in North Africa", Thomas Jentz writes that the Pz II (and even Pz I) was sent to North Africa and backs this up with photographic evidence, including at least three examples with tactical numbers visible, namely I21, 241 & RA, the last being the regimental doctor's mount). And in "Panzer Truppen, Vol 2" by the same author, it gives the number of operational Pz II with Pz Rgt 5 and Pz Rgt 8 as late as 23 October 1942 as 18 and 12 respectively.

From this it seems that the Pz II was used both in the leichte Zug of the battalions and companies (whose purpose was reconnaissance) as well as filling out each leichte Panzerkompanie whose nominal equipment was the Pz III (as evidenced by tactical number 241 mentioned above).

For what it's worth I would count leichte Zug Pz II's as recce units and other Pz II's as armour units.

All the best

Puzzled

Puzzled,

I've got Jentz's books (not to hand!) but I don't recall any direct references to a recce role for the Leichte Zug - I could be wrong.

Are you basing this on their title "Leichte", because all the PzIII/II mixed coys were referred to as Leichte.

I'll have to read Jentz when I get home...

Wouldn't the PzII with the recce units be more used as recce support than doing the scouting? That is, the ACs and motorcycle troops perform the recce and use the PzIIs to bail them out when things start to get sticky?

I'm not sure if you get PzII and A/Cs in the same bttn in '42!
For North Africa atleast
- A/C is in recce
- PzII is in the Panzer bttn

I'm not at all convinced that PzII is used for proper recce in North Africa at all - not as we use it in BKC games. The Leichte Zug passing on location info to the nearest FAO - they wouldn't even be on the same radio net.

Hi All

No Doc, I'm aware that the "leichte" simply refers to the size of the majority of the tanks in the formation, not their role.

It's my understanding that there were 45 Pz II's in each of the Panzer Regiments sent to North Africa - which were in 9 leichte Zug's of 5 tanks each (according to the K.St.N organograms in Jentz's books).

Each of the 6 Panzerkompanie's had one leichte Zug (that is the 4 leichte Panzerkompanie's and the 2 mittlere Panzerkompanie's). Tactical number 241 (mentioned above) is an example of a Pz II in a Panzerkompanie. It's my belief that these leichte Zug's were there to make up for shortages of Pz III's and IV's.

The Stabskompanie of each Panzerabteilung also had a leichte Zug. Tactical number I21 is an example of a Pz II at battalion level. It's my belief that these leichte Zug's were the battalion's organic recce, in exactly the same way that the motorcycle platoon in the equivalent place in an infantry battalion's organisation was meant for that task.

Finally there was one leichte Zug at regimental HQ level. Tactical number RA is an example of one of these Pz II's. It's my belief that these tanks were used as runabouts in a similar way to the scout cars in British Armoured Regiments (as Doc says).

I agree with Doc when he says, Pz II's were in the Panzer-Regiment's and the armoured cars were in the Aufklaerungsabteilung, so they would normally be found together.

As for not being proper recce as we use it in BKC games - well, there are to issues there. Firstly, by that definition pretty well no organic recce would count as proper since they usually reported directly to their own HQ, which then reacted accordingly. And secondly liaising with the nearest FAO is not the only use of recce units in BKC - for example the Command Value adjustment option seems perfectly reasonable for organic recce.

I suspect the rules make no differentiation between organic recce and "proper" recce simply on the grounds of simplicity - which works for me - well done Pete!

All the best

Puzzled

"It's my belief that these leichte Zug's were the battalion's organic recce, in exactly the same way that the motorcycle platoon in the equivalent place in an infantry battalion's organisation was meant for that task."

These were at regimental level not bttln and were horse or bicycle mounted. Motorcycle troops do appear in panzer and motorised divisions though.

The light platoons are shown with the sign for panzer toops rather than recce in the organisational tables too;

http://niehorster.orbat.com/011_germany/41_orga...

I like the idea of them being recce support - I just can't bring myself to treat them as full recce. My mother would never forgive me.

oops, well spotted - I meant motorised/armoured infantry, not just foot sloggers - I was looking at one of Niehorster's books - sorry

Puzzled

Jentz does refer to a recce role for the Leichte zug, but only communicating to the BHQ/RHQ.

"Jentz does refer to a recce role for the Leichte zug, but only communicating to the BHQ/RHQ."

Blimey, I looked for that and couldn't find it - what page is it on please Doc?

Puzzled

It's in the bit on German armoured tactics, 5.2, starting on p.70

He mentions it in para 40 "combat reconnissance by the leichten zug of the regiment provides the commander with information". Then they get special mention again on p77 when in defence of dealing with mines.

...but it's all from the ideal of the tactics manual. It's this that makes me think of them as recce support, or perhaps......as recce, but only able to communicate with their own BHQ/RHQ?