The Commander Series Forum

Hi all

just to check.

When a recce unit is making a check for a communication roll by measuring to the closest Enemy unit and rolling a dice.

Does the recce unit need line of sight to the enemy unit, or is it just the closest unit, Irrespective of LoS.

Thanks

Closest regardless of LOS

Does a recce roll have to be against a command unit if the command unit is the closest enemy to the recce?
If so, can the command unit be bombarded at if the nearest friendly command unit is an FAO?

Sorry, to be abrupt but I'm in the middle of a game and the germans are coming over the hills!

Cheers

ANY enemy unit

... I mean the nearest regardless of type.

Cheers again!

I thought Command Units couldn't be targeted by recce. In other words it has to be a "unit" rather than a CO/HQ/FAO/FAC.

"I thought Command Units couldn't be targeted by recce. In other words it has to be a "unit" rather than a CO/HQ/FAO/FAC."

I had the same thought.

There must be a post from Pete on this somewhere.

Steve

Game over now with the Germans falling to the mighty US artillery.
However, with regard to this question I also thought I had read somewhere that the recce couldn't target a command unit but I couldn't find it again and so had to settle for the German FAO moving to be the closest unit for the recce to target but then not being able to get anyone to fire at it.
I should add that all the German units were out of sight including the FAO so if I hadn't had to target the FAO I could have detected an non-command unit and then called in the artillery from my adjacent FAO.

Hang on - the initial question wasn't about "targeting" the command unit. It was the recce comms rule wasn't it?

For the recce comms rule - it's the nearest enemy unit regardless of type and LOS isn't it?

For shooting, as the rules stand, command units can't be targeted. However, we have a house rule to remove cheesy and odd play, that command units CAN be targeted if they are the nearest enemy unit.

Hi Dr Dave - I understand it wasn't about trying to "shoot" the command unit, just spotting it. But I'm sure I read somewhere (probably buried in a post here, yonks ago) that Command units don't count and it has to be a "proper" unit.

I'm sure Pete will verify one way or the other.

cheers

John

Hi Guys
I think a lot of the answers to this are on the attached thread !!

http://www.blitzkrieg-commander.com/Content/For...

Cheers
Andy

I remember the same as Johnboy - the rules say the nearest unit, but what is meant is the nearest non-command unit. I think Pete has said as much, but I can't remember where. And anyway, it has to be this way because otherwise a recce unit could use a command unit as the target for Artillery/Air Support thus getting around the fact that you can't target command units.

Quiet day at work Ingjald?

Puzzled

Hi Pete - please could you confirm whether or not enemy command units count as "nearest enemy unit" for recce rolls? I've scoured the posts and haven't found a definitive answer but I'm sure I've read somewhere that it needs to be a non-command unit.

And, as Puzzled has already pointed out, what's the point in "spotting" an enemy Command Unit if you can't target it?

thanks

John

Uhmmm, the invulnerability of command units is the problem!

It seems odd then that the recce unit cannot fire at an enemy command unit, but he can overun it! It would now seem that if the recce unit cannot "look" at it either!

Hi Doc!

Why do you want to be able to target command units? Isn't the point of the game to destroy combat units?

In the first incarnation of BKC the command units merely represented the focus/stance/axis/whatever of a formation, not the individuals concerned - so you were encouraged to throw them out in front to make advancing easier, etc - and the overrun option was there simply to avoid your opponent taking liberties.

I think that abstraction makes sense, but there does seem to be pressure from some quarters to make the whole model less abstract - maybe that's why the overrun rule changed.

Allowing players to deliberately target (and therefore take out) command units seems like giving them too much freedom to do things that are quite difficult to do in real life.

Puzzled

"Uhmmm, the invulnerability of command units is the problem!"

Not if you roll as many blunders as I do!!

You can think about wanting to target the command unit from a number of points but what lead to me asking the question was because the recce rule states that the roll is made against the closest enemy unit. Now if that enemy unit happens to be a command unit it could reduce the score required for the recce roll to be successful, so an advantage to the recce unit but as the rules say you cannot target a command unit the only advantage the nearest friendly command unit would get is a CV bonus. Now you could consider this not to be in the interest of the enemy unit but if the enemy is pushing his command unit out slightly in front of the combat unit so that the recce cannot locate a non-command unit and then communicate with an FAO who would then in turn call in the artillery on to the non-command unit, you can see how it is a particularly good tactic to shield your forces until they are in close contact with the enemy.
The issue is, if the recce action detects a command unit then surely it would be reasonsible to be able to target the command unit. However, 'we' don't want players to be able to target command units so the sensible course would be to rule that the recce action is against the nearest non-command unit and so the issue goes away.
Of course, this still leaves you with how you can protect your units from being targeted by artillery by recce units but that's all part of the game!

Leader: "... so the sensible course would be to rule that the recce action is against the nearest non-command unit and so the issue goes away."

That's my understanding of what is meant - Pete, can you confirm this?

Puzzled

Puzzled - I'm perfectly happy that a recce unit cannot target a command unit with gunfire. But that same recce unit CAN overun them if I remember things correctly?

So we have a situation that a recce unit can drive over the enemy HQ, but he can't report it to freindly command units with a recce roll? That's what I find odd?

The one thing I'm wary of in BKC/CWC is command units wandering close to the enemy - that just seems silly to me! Hence, I'd be inclined to count the recce ruling as the nearest enemy, regardless of type.

Hi Doc!

The way I rationalise it is the same way I do for Recce units. Recce units don't need line of sight to the units they are trying to recce because the model doesn't represent the actual spot occupied by the recce troops/vehicles. Instead it representes the centre of the area of effect of the recce unit.

So likewise, at least in old BKC, the position of command units on table represented their area of effect rather than their exact position - that's why they simply relocated when overrun. And that's why I don't see a command unit being near an enemy as being silly - because it's not necessarily actually there - it's its area of effect that's there.

Sadly, IMO, the change to the overrun rule has muddied the waters a little in this respect because the ability to attack and cause wounds to a command unit implies a more literal interpretation of their location, whereas the previous abstract method fitted in well with the overall abstraction of C&C in the rules.

My personal view is that if anyone can directly target command units in any way in order to cause them damage (i.e. apart from simply making them relocate or them taking colateral damage) it is inviting players to indulge in command unit hunting. And if they do that that they can gain an advantage which detracts from the game. I've seen it happen more than once - command units chased across the table - now that does seem silly to me.

Thanks for the discussion - it's good to learn the thinking behind people's views.

Puzzled

Hi,

Our house rules for the situation is following. If the closest enemy to your recce is an enemy command unit you can decide to use the command unit or use the closest non-command unit. If you choose the command unit the only benefit a succesfull recce roll can give is the +1 CV.

The house rule achieves two things. One can't shoot/target command units as in the rest of the rules. Secondly you can still benefit from shorther distance and easier recce roll to the command unit the enemy has pushed way forward which ought to discourage the enemy from pushing us invunerable command units too close.

I think I begin to see it now!

In our games we've never had the FAO/FAC as the closest friendly command unit - it's only ever been HQs (bit odd really).

Hence, the "targetting" with arty / aircraft issue has never come up. I would not allow this under the rules - so I think that we're all in agreement?

Group hug

Johnboy, you're a big old softy - but I like you! And sometimes I think you see conflict where people are simply exchanging opinions!

Puzzled