The Commander Series Forum

Just a quickie. If I am transporting a mortar or towing a gun it takes 1 command to unload/unhitch. Can the said units then fire on their next command or do I still need to deploy them first?

Pontic

I would think that the command to unload includes deployment of the gun. Thus the unit can fire on the next command.

See p.24

I assume then that unloading from transport comes under man handling, therefore the mortars/guns have to do a deploy action before firing.
Good thats how I have been playing it

Pontic

To pack up and move a gun, do you need to undeploy it and then limber it or can you just limber?

Some confusion here.

Man handling merely indicates guns which the crew can move itself without a transport and then they can only be moved once a turn that way. See page 18.

Further page 18 states unlimbering IS a deploy action. With this in mind (and reading page 24) a towed gun which receives an order may unlimber (considered deploying) with one command and then fire with the next command, two commands total. If the towed gun moved by towing then would be 3 commands, move, unlimber, fire. If man handled, which is considered moving then the same, the man handling is a move, then deploy and then fire command so total of 3.

Process is the same for mortars the way I read it with the exception of I dont see a restriction, as with towed guns, of only one man handled move a turn.

As for loading the same, since limbering is a deployment action then one command to limber and another to move.

Just a follow up; because we have being playing this wrong. What happens with deployed guns when a Russian does a "move all" order to gain the +1 bonus?

We have been moving the guns; but it appears you need to do a deploy before moving.

Seems to me, since it has been determined that "formation" has two meanings, the fixed units in a formation under a HQ at start of the game as well as the units being designated to receive an order the Russian player would merely indicate the units within their beginning formation to receive the order to move and thus gain the plus 1.

For example if the beginning formation for the Soviet player is say 3 infantry units, an MG unit and an AT gun with the AT gun deployed the Soviet HQ could issue an order to just the 3 infantry units and the MG to move and still get the +1.

Marc33549 - NO!

When rigid tactical doctrine is employed the +1 is only allowed if ALL units in the WHOLE formation are doing the same thing - not simply those you order to do something! Hence, there are times when you just can't get the +1. This has been raised on the CWC threads many times. In the end it was decided to exclude recce, AA and suppressed units.

Thanks for the clarification Dr Dave, much appreciated. Makes more sense actually.

Marc

BTW you agree I have it right on my understanding one message up from the question on the ridgid tactical doctrine bonus?

Thanks again
Marc

When the gun is given an order to unlimber it would then be ready to shoot on the next command. The mortar could go either way (depending on how technical you want to get). I think I would say that it would take an order to deploy from the transport unit, then would take an action to deploy, then could fire on the third command. The deploy order is given to the infantry "carrying" the mortar, they would then need to find a suitable setup position, then start their shoots from there.

Is it the case that the deploy order includes set up? I'm confused?

1. You could issue an order to deploy(1) from transport and the unit is "set up" within 5cm of the transport and ready to open fire(2)

OR...

2. Order them to deploy(1), move to a nice spot(2) then set up(3) ready to fire(4)

option 1 looks odd now, taking 1/2 the number of orders to come into action?

Marc - in your example the +1 could not apply, since the HQ is not ordering ***ALL*** of his units to do the same thing. The AT gun has been ordered (in effect) to remain where it is and do nothing! Otherwise I can't see a time when the +1 would not apply!

Rigid tactical doctrine is NOT an advantage. We find it best to confine commands to a single unit type. Hence, the T34s have an HQ, and their tank riders have an HQ.

Dr Dave, I understand what you are saying and agree. I was asking your opinion on my interpretation of deploying and manhandling two up from my mistaken interpretation of the +1 bonus and ridgid doctrine. Once again understand what you are saying about the ridgid doctrine and agree.

Panzerleader, I would still say two commands for the mortar, deploy from vehicle and fire. If a towed gun can unlimber and deploy with the one order, which I believe it can, then surely a mortar can be removed from a vehicle and set up with one order as well. It seems to me, logically, it takes no more time for a crew of say an 81mm mortar to jump out of a half track for example and set it up then it does for say a crew of a 57mm to hop out of the same halftrack, unlimber the gun and then set it up. In both cases two commands. Command one would be unlimber/unload which would be a deploy action and command two fire.

Dr Dave, would agree with your two examples and no, not odd, your examples, explanation and number of orders does seem reasonable.

Marc - silly me

So having transport for your little Finnish AT guns might be a good move simply to get them into action quicker - never mind the movement bonus?

Not sure I follow the Finnish AT gun example, not yet fully familiar with the rules.

I know most of the rules are generalizations and can't possibly cover all possibilities so I usually fall back on what seems, based on experience, to be logical.

Why dont we all meet over a few beers and work this all out?

I had always assumed that manhandled AT guns didn't need a deploy order to fire - they were in effect mini-soft-tanks: move/fire/move/fire - but now I think it's move/deploy/fire/move, or is it move/deploy/fire/deploy/move?

Seems a bit harsh for a 25mm ATG?

Ah, got you. Well you can only move them once per turn via man handling per page 18.

I can't say for a French 25 but have seen both pictures and videos of German troops man handling the 37mm which I wouldnt think would be that much bigger. They actually have a harness on some of the troops. They fix those up with straps and in essence some of the gun crew becomes draught animals pulling while others rotate and guide the wheels. Once in position they have to remove and stow the straps (the harness would remain on the gunners however) so it is a bit involved. So I could indeed justify move (via man handle) deploy and then fire. However couldnt then be followed by another move per page 18.

As I said wouldnt this go so much smoother over a beer or two or libation of choice?

Marc

I drank with Col. Klink before my last game. Not a good idea. I rolled four command blunders in 8 turns. Errrgghhh!

I am not sure of the need for the deploy because manhandling movement is slow anyway - normal half an infantry move and only once.

It seems to add a complication without much return. I think we will "house rule" it out.

This does not mean I think it was an easy task to shift a gun; just that the pg18 rules reflect it well enough.

TonyO,

I think that you're correct. I'm thinking of the smaller AT guns (<45mm) and using a deploy action between a manhandle and a fire order does seem a bit tough.

Greetings

Things like Japanese guns being run out into cave mouths and then run back into avoid return fire, moving light AT guns to better positions (often with the trails still open) etc indicate to me that often the manhandling was of an already deployed gun. In other cases e.g. manhandling a 6pdr up an Italian ridge to fire on a village (2 London Irish Rifles IIRC), the gun would certainly have to deploy afterwards when a position was located.

Regards

Edward

I think in the rules, HMGs and mortars also require setting up before firing.

I think if this were just a single gun, then it would make sense that I could "move and fire" in the time frame of the game, but since this base represents a battery of several, just saying they all require time to setup doesn't seem too bad.

Otherwise you have to have rules for light vs medium vs heavy AT guns.. FOW does this, and it works, (they even have man handled guns for HMGs and mortars), but again, I think its a smaller scale.

Per page 24 MGs are NOT required to deploy between moving and firing. Per the same page man handled mortars DO require deploying between moving and firing. Same page also specifically states you must carry out a deploy between man handling and firing AT guns with the Russian 45mm specifically mentioned.

I believe Greedo has hit it on the nose. This isnt a skirmish level game where we are talking about man handling a single 37mm AT gun but rather a group of them.

That being said once again believe Greedo has a good compromise though it would belong in the "house rules" section of differentiating between light and medium or heavy AT guns.