The Commander Series Forum

I don't understand exactly how the recce units are controlled. If they are not part of a formation, who issues them orders? Also, how does calling artillery support work? Do they establish communications with any HQ unit? If so, do they then call artillery support successfully during the command phase based on that HQ's CV? How do the modifiers for FAOs play in to this? We played our first scenario this past weekend and could not clearly define how recce works regarding these issues. Any information to clear this up would be very helpful.

Russ

Yes we had discussions at the weekend over recce in the game. When establishing comunication for artillery fire etc does the recce unit have to have LOS to the nearest target unit. You do for all other types of activity in the iniative phase. In CWC it does state that it does need LOS but this has been omitted in BKC11.
John

A recce unit doesn't require LOS - just a successful die roll to establish that a unit is present.

My understanding is:

THE INTITAIVE PHASE
Recce Units (not Recce Support) can Communicate with the nearest Command Unit (this includes CO, HQ, FAO, FAC whichever is nearest) by measuring the distance to the nearest enemy unit and following the procedure on Page 10. In this case the enemy unit does not have to be already visible. If communication is successful, this allows the receiving Command Unit to benefit as stated by the bullet points. Note that the Indirect Fire and Air Strike options only allow the Command Unit to target the enemy unit the Recce has spotted, the Command Unit still has to successfully issue orders as usual. In The case of FAO or FAC the number of Deviation Dice used is still dependant on distance of the FAO/FAC to the targeted unit. If the Recce Unit Communicates, or attempts to Communicate, it may not be issued orders in the Command Phase.

Still in the Initiative Phase - Instead of Communicating Recce Units, including Recce Support, can respond to the nearest visible enemy unit in the same way as any other unit (except they can not initiate Close Assault - page 30). In this case the enemy unit has to be visible and within Initiative Distance. If they do this there would be a minus 1 modifier (for using initiative) to any Command Roll trying to give it an order in the Command Phase, which brings me to-

THE COMMAND PHASE
I can see the confusion here.
Page 10 (Recce) certainly indicates recce units can receive Commands (if they didn’t attempt to Communicate). If they didn’t receive orders they couldn’t move towards the enemy if not within Initiative Distance.
Page 42 (Formations) says recce units are not assigned to formations
Page 43 (Tactical Doctrine) says Rigid Doctrine HQs can only issue orders to units in their own formation, Normal Doctrine at minus 1 to units in other formations. Flexible Doctrine Command units can issue orders to anyone.
The answer has to be use the CO to command the recce units to move (move or fire if recce support).

Hope this covers it.
Albie Bach

Albie, John, Russ,

My reading / playing (and I am not often right) of Recce is like Albie's except for points in his Command Phase Summary.

Recce could be issued orders by any HQ or the CO, as the rules read, not just the CO. So in theory they could be picked up by any HQ (or the CO).

To avoid confusion you could opt to play that each is assigned to a HQ during the game for command rolls, and only in initiative is this ignored.

When it comes to tactical doctrine then it appears, recce units are not subject to this rule and any HQ can still assign commands to them. But you could play it that Rigid assign and others do not?

BUT MY MAIN POINT IS THAT IT IS BOTH ANY HQ and the CO who can give recce commands and NOT JUST THE CO.

Hope this helps you ?

Carl Luxford

Gentlemen,

I appreciate the input. We played it as the CO was responsible for the recce units, but the issue still remained that when recce units established communication with the CO and allowed that command unit to call artillery support, the modifiers on page 26 were in question. Does the command that the recce unit established commo with suffer these penalties? They appear to be modifiers for FAOs. The problem is, the command roles against their CV to issue orders to all units under their control. Would the modifiers here apply to the artillery support request only? Would it be a separate die roll? We had 4 off-board artillery units for the Americans and there is a -1 penalty on the command roll for that. We assumed the modifer only applied to the order for artillery support and not for the other subordinate units. Thanks again for all the info!

Russ

Russ,

When Recce units establish communciations as part of Initiative (only time they can do this) then this is always with the NEAREST friendly command unit / base.

So if the shortest distance on table from this recce unit is to a HQ, or a FAO, or a FAC, and not the CO, then this command unit is the one you can communicate with using the options available.

Some options can only be used by an FAO and not by a HQ or CO, so need to take this in to account too.

Sorry I have not got my rules to hand to check page 26, but it appears, it is the above aspects you are not following, as these clarify what modifiers would apply and who would be making subsequent dice rolls.

Needless to say, if it was your CO who was the nearest command unit, then it would probably be wise to not use the CO first in the Command phase but leave him till last due to the risk of a blunder ending your turn. In past (under BKC1), we sometimes left a marker of some sort, next to the nearest command unit the Recce had spoken to, to remind us of the chosen action to pursue later.

And leave a marker next to Recce unit to signify this had taken an initiative action and so would be minus 1 to command in the command phase.

Also note that modifiers only apply for the chosen or intended action that command unit is about to take: so if the CO had been communciated with, and CO had chosen to take a Fire / Shoot action with one formation, (or one part of the formation the CO could command), then only the modifiers applying to that order and that group of units being ordered apply.

If going on to other parts later, then the CV returns to full value for new orders if the CO was succesful previously. Once the CO fails thats your whole turn ended.

Similarly, once a HQ (or FAO or FAC) fails thats their part of the current turn ended.

Carl Luxford

Russ wrote:"when recce units established communication with the CO and allowed that command unit to call artillery support"

Recce section on page 10 is worth rereading. COs ang HQs can't order artillery even with a recce unit in contact with them.

It's also good to remember like Carl said that it's always the nearest command unit the recce is in contact with. ie you can't choose which on you want and that the target a possible inderect fire is always the nearest enemy unit from the your recce unit.

iAugustus

P.S. What the page 10. doesn't unfortunately talk about is if the closest enemy unit is an enemy command unit. Is this unit ignored and you must or can choose the next closest. Why does this matter? Because if you can't use the enemy command unit a target for indirect fire as per normal rules you can screen your regular units using a command unit and reduce the chance of getting hit a artillery. Of course this wouldn't be a problem if command units could be targeted in this situation or you could choose the next closest unit as a target for the recce roll...

Russ
I hope the above from Carl and iAugustus answers your questions.

Carl
Thanks for reinforcing my original message apart from the Command Phase part.
I know Recce units operate under various levels of control so, I agree, why not the HQ?
I did have the idea that HQs could order recce units but I just can't find anything in the book to support it. Page 10 just talks generally about the command phase not mentioning CO or HQ in that context. Then any other rules seem to exclude the HQ.
Under Tactical Doctrine the reference is only that some HQs may issue orders to units in “OTHER FORMATIONS”, which page 42 states that recce are not. I did give the wrong impression at the end of my message by saying
“Flexible Doctrine Command units can issue orders to anyone.”
In fact the book says “HQs may issue orders to units in other formations without penalty.”

Of course we could take the opinion that the Recce Units classify as their own formation then maybe we are agreed certain HQs can issue orders to recce formations as per the Tactical Doctrine restrictions.
What do you (or anyone else) think?

iAugustus
Yes, what if the nearest enemy unit is a Command Unit?
I would say you still use it as the nearest enemy unit but I stand to be corrected (as always).
My point is, if a Command Ubnit has been pushed forwards to screen other troops the penalties for a Command being overrun are rather serious. If I understand page 13 correctly “the command unit will count as being in the open” (4+ to hit/suppress) then it doesn’t take much to do some serious damage or even knock it out. I know to my cost.

Albie

For the purposes of communciation we house rules that the nearest unit can not be the enemys recee unit or a HQ.

Sorry thats not right, reece can'tr spot other reece for communication puroposes.

my understanding was that when communciating with a FAC/FAO that when rolling for deviation that you use the recce not the FAC/FAO

Hi Guys
Very interesting discussion which I feel has shown that we could do with Pete clarifying the recce situation.
How I have played it in my games is
1. Recce does not need LOS to nearest emeny unit.
2. When communicating the result depends what type of command the nearest command unit is. If CO/HQ can add 1 to command roll or call down indirect fire of on table units in the formation. If FAO/FAC can call down off table artillery of air strike. In this case deviation roll is measured from the recce unit (as it is the spotter).
I do not claim this to be how the rule should work only that it fitted in with the normal rule functions for indirect of on table fire that formations can do when ordered by CO/HQ's and the command functions that FAO/FAC can do in the game.
3. That because of their special nature they do not need to be in a formation and can receive an order from any CO/HQ.
John

Lost Again
"... - the recce options just allow you to target the enemy unit nearest to the recce unit." Page 10.
No mention of deviation distance relating to recce position. I'm happy to be proven wrong.
The IDF/Air Strike options only allow you to target a unit the closest Command Unit can not see for themselves.
Cheers, Albie Bach

John
We crossed over there.
I'm just trying to interpret the rules as written.
Maybe we need clarification on your point 3. You certainly agree with Carl on HQs. What I don’t think is right is that an HQ on the left of the battlefield could order a recce unit communicating with an HQ on the right, with or without distance penalty. A CO yes, but not an HQ.
Perhaps it should be the CO or closest HQ.

Gentlemen,

I appreciate all of the input. It appears there is some room for interpretation here. I know, doctrinally, that a priority of fires is assigned to specified units during an operation. Recce units are normally given priority of fires as they are best designed for two things, gathering intel on the enemy and targeting enemy for indirect fire. It would be reasonable for the recce unit to contact the closest HQ if they were not in contact with their higher HQ (usually a recce platoon reported to the BN command). This is why we assigned the CO as the recce platoon's HQ element to establish contact with and receive orders from. I know this is not exactly how the rules are designed. I guess any scenarios mentioned above can work. I still have these questions. Is it true that only FAO units can call off-board artillery? When the recce unit establishes contact with an FAO, do they suffer the -1 command penalty when calling for artillery support of more than 3 units?

The short answers are yes and yes.

Now to qualify that to try to avoid any confusion.

Q1. Is it true that only FAO units can call off-board artillery?
A. Only the FAO can call off-board artillery as per the Requesting Artillery Support rules on page 26.
However, off-board Artillery can also fire at registered targets as per the Scheduled Strikes rules on page 8. This does not require an FAO order.
Each artillery unit can only be used once in a turn. So if you have 4 off-board Artillery Units two could be scheduled to fire at a registered target in turn 3 which would leave the other two available for the FAO to request in the Command Phase of turn 3.

Q2. When the recce unit establishes contact with an FAO, do they suffer the -1 command penalty when calling for artillery support of more than 3 units?
Yes, all the modifiers accumulate.
So say your FAO has a CV7, you have 5 off-board artillery units (not self-propelled) and none of them is scheduled to fire at a registered target this turn. You want 4 guns to fire at target A and you want 1 gun to fire smoke at target B. The Recce unit has successfully communicated to the FAO and you have chosen to “add one to command value of the command unit for the duration of the turn (CO, HQ, FAO or FAC)” – in this case the FAO.
You are going to attempt to fire the four guns at target A first.
CV7
Modifiers are :
+1 for successful recce communication
-1 for additional artillery units above 3
Net result 7

Assuming that is successful you conclude that firing and now attempt to fire smoke using the single gun at target B.
CV7
Modifiers are :
+1 for successful recce communication
-1 for each successive request by FAO this turn
-1 for requesting smoke
Net result 6

I know I’ve overdone this example and stated the obvious but I want to make sure you are clear and happy.

Oops - I've just seen on another topic "Dumb Russian Artillery Question" that Russian Scouts can act as FAO at CV6. You had better have a look at that. Sorry

Albie
My aplogies my post was unclear at point No.3 the recce I allow to be issued orders by any HQ or the CO but the command unit issuing the orders must be the nearest one to the recce unit.
BTW I do not play CWC but I have just read a post from Pete on the CWC forum about recce and communicating. It is titled Recce Question posted by sunjester. He states that recce communicating with the nearest command unit which is a CO or HQ cannot call in an airstrike. This would obviously also apply to off table artillery fire as both functions require either a FAC or an FAO. There is one exception to this in the game which is the American/Late French using the special close artillery support rule for artillery.
Cheers
John

Thanks John