The Commander Series Forum

I really like the addition of terrain saves in BKCII as it differentiates terrain types in an easy manner -- concreted trenches are more substantial than a stone wall or a wooden building, but less imposing than an enclosed bunker. However, I wonder if some of these positions that get saves should apply the save roll only against small arms? AFV saves assume being hit by guns designed to take out armour; terrain saves for brick buildings make sense for small arms but I wonder if a a hit from a HE round would really warrant the additional save (no problem with the 6 to hit)? I ask this because the AP factor for many guns is no better than small arms AP factors (3-5 dice).

Any thoughts? HArdened positions are really tough to take out and I have just invested a whack of cash on ruins -- thinking about street fighting has made me wonder about the role of direct fire HE.

So, I am thinking about eliminating the save roll for terrain when engaged by direct fire from tanks and guns (i.e., not small arms).

Chris

You're absolutely right and I like your proposal but we should be careful that the game doesn't become too complex with such additions.
I have to admit that even now the different to-hit numbers and different saves are a bit confusing to me. Adding more complexity to this might be too much.

Believe when I say that I am really trying to keep changes to a minimum (in spite of suggestions from my group for more radical changes!).

This wrinkle does not change the mechanic, just when to use it. I suppose I am trying to rationalize the purpose of close support weapons like IG guns and CS tanks in dealing with hardpoints. Attacking infantry in a brick building with small arms is tough. Roll up the 75mm IG or even better a Centaur or Brummbar there should be more than just some extra dice, I think. Even cannon fire can be nastier than your average MG.

Chris

No need to convince me of the better depiction of reality.
Maybe I just missed it in the rules, but what exactly are small arms?
The AP attacks of some tanks could be HE shells, of other tanks simply MG fire. When to apply the save and when not?
I can only speak for myself and I am confused with the rules already, for example where is the definition for light vehicles (having low profiles)?
Perhaps the unit profiles lack some information, for example what profile they have, if they have smoke dischargers (it's somewhere between the lists and looks like a fluff box) and now we need to know if they are considered having small arms or not (the return of the asterisk?)

roll up a sturmtiger and fire it at a building i wouldnt think the building would be there any more

Yes, but the two hits you get with the Sturmtiger will possibly be reduced to one with the save! And then the suppression roll will be 50% less likely to succeed.

Mehrunes, I think that small arms are not difficult to identify without the rules telling you what vehicles are exclusively armed with them or not. No?

I don't think that this slight amendment to the save rule is so complicated and it adds a nice little tactical nuance that makes having a tank or gun valuable in taking out a hardened position -- just like in real tactics. The one thing that 'simple' rules risk is the reduction of the game into a big blur of firing without tactics. BKC can run the risk of this dice accumulation mania. Scenario design is crucial to avoid this, but rules too can help to avoid this by adding tactical options.

Cheers,
Chris

I forgot to add that the saves would still apply to all indirect artillery and air attacks -- the exception to saves is only for direct fire from tanks and guns.

Mehrunes:
BTW, ground units that lack an AT value are usually the ones that would have saves applied for terrain (small arms). Those with an AT value usually have something that has a big bang for which the saves would not count.

i would have thought that certern units like the sturmtiger and brummbar there shouldnt be saves on buildings. i cant see the shot bouncing off the wall?

Yes, that is my point -- a Brummbar direct firing right at some infantry hold-up in a building should not have saves simply to differentiate this firing from small arms against which the target would get the saves.

Chris

from now on if i have a unit like the Brummbar etc i wont be giveing saves to any units in buildings, if anything the infantry should take more damage from the building as it is hit!

Exactly. Seems like an easy alteration to the existing rule and adds fun to the decision to bring up the big guns. Or perhaps dread as that Brummbar rolls up with multiple actions. Kind of like seeing a fist come at you in slow motion.....

Ciao Cleach, your point of wiev suggested me an idea.
When guns and tanks use direct fire (HE) vs. inf. troops
they hit like target in open (4,5,6) but the inf. make a roll-save for type of cover or terrain. Ex. A Sherman tank with a 75mm firing at a inf. inside a house (solid,brick or stone). The 75mm gun to hit the inf.has not need to hit it with accuracy like a rifle because gun has a HE area so the target can be consider bigger (the house or a window or a door), so the score to hit is 4,5,6 but inf. use a save roll of 5,6 (house, trench) or 4,5,6 (bunker ecc.).
I think this solution is not complicated and adds more effective role to tanks or guns in support during an attack.

I would agree with specialised vehicles such as Brummbars, Centaurs or Petard mortars. However, if you apply this rule to all AVF's with HE capability you are likely to return to the situation under BKC1 where no infantry ever assaulted dug in troops - you just stand off and blast them out.

If you are going to do this shouldn't you also take into account the low proportion of HE ammo carried by most AVFs in comparison to Armour piercing?

Why not just say Infantry Guns, Assault Guns and Artillery Support ignore saves from buildings?

I know that simplifies it a bit and doesn't include things like 75mm Shermans whilst a few exceptions like Elefant would creep in but that would be the simplest way to determine it I think.

I think that would work - you would need to add in the "Supporting Tank" classification for the for the allies.

Yeah, i forgot the British and Yank stuff.

I have reflected about terrain save and at pag 135 Pete explains why there is the save roll in BKC-II.
But with this rule it's more difficult suppres the infantry in cover so the CA without suppression of the enemy is a suicide.
Anyway under optional rules there is the "Auto-suppression" for artillery so I think if it's rigth give the same rule when
a gun or tank fire AP against soft targets.