The Commander Series Forum

In my original amendments to BKC, I changed the initiative phase to allow shooting at full range. Part of my rationale for this was to allow tank destroyers like Marders - good gun but weak armour -- to use their typical tactic of shooting and moving to avoid return fire. Letting a unit fire at full range in initiative (during which opportunity shots are disallowed) made shooting and then using an initial command to back off (scooting) possible.

I am wondering how best to use these vulnerable units without this houserule in BKCII. I have gone much more orthodox with the new game but this is perplexing me. With a Nashorn I suppose you can fire at extreme range and hope to get the second command to bug-out. But with concealed Marders you are unlikely to outrange your opponents and waiting for them to get into initiative range ignores the potential of the gun.

What to do? I want to play as per the rules, but I want to see the rationale for having these quite common TDs without them being simply suicidal.

Chris

I suppose you could use the Stabilization rule from CWC. I know WWII TDs didn't have this system but you could use a S2 modifier, and allow a shoot then move maneuver on the same command.

Hidden deployment in a covered position that exposes the enemy flanks? Easier said than done! That's about all I can think of at the mo.

Unfortunately, with the rules, I don't think you can do shoot'n scoot.

The primary problem is that the enemy can opportunity fire the moment you declare movement. So even if you are behind a wall, you can't move before you are shot at even though the moment you move, you would be out of sight.

BKC2 has compounded the problem because now woods and BUAs no longer provide edge LOS problems. If you are in a wood, you would have to move back 10cm before you go out of sight.

My solution is to house rule it. If a unit is in cover and they can, as the first part of their move, immediately break LOS (eg, go back from a wall) and they declare they are doing so before starting the move, then they can do that part of the move without being fired upon.

The second part of my house rule is to adopt the LOS rules from CWC and append only low and normal profile rules for when both units are in the same woods and BUAs.

There is one way of doing shoot'n scoot but it's very specific: during your opponent's turn, you opportunity fire at a target within initiative range. Your opponent then blows his next command role. For your initiative move, you move out of sight.

Hi Siggian:

I don't think you are correct about opportunity fire and movement. Since opp fire is sparked by movement it must, by definition, be initiated. Consequently, even the most fractional movement back from a wall will break LOS.

Chris

So, I have been thinking about a solution and it would be applied to all units: a new action called "shoot and scoot".

The definition:
A unit performing a shoot and scoot action fire and move as part of the same action. Fire as usual, but apply a -1 D6 to the shot for each unit performing the action. Immediately after firing the unit is withdraw straight back 1 cm. Since the fire and movement are part of the same action, opportunity fire may only be claimed AFTER the movement is initiated. If this puts LOS blocking terrain between the firing unit and the unit attempting to opportunity fire, the LOS is broken and Opportunity fire disallowed.

Units that must "deploy" before moving (e.g., mortars) may not Shoot and Scoot.

I believe this additional action option is simple, uses existing mechanics, and allows for the kind of ambush fire and movement that many unit types relied upon. Of course, there is a price: reduced firing effectiveness and the additional actions required to move back into a firing position and fire.

Comments?

Chris

Shoot and scoot is a planned action that has its risks.

HQ rolls for first action. All units move up.
HQ rolls for second action. All units fire!
HQ rolls for third action. All units move back.

The risk is in not making the command roll. (The big reward is rolling snakeyes, YES!) You need to balance risk with reward in the game. That's part of taking command and making command decisions. Sometimes you win and sometimes you loose. That's what I like about these rules. A command with a high CV will take the chance. A command with a low CV will need to figure out another way to do it.

Your description is obviously one way of doing this, T-Square, but for thinly armoured units enemy opportunity fire makes it often suicidal and I was assuming concealed starting positions.

Perhaps one just has to accept this but it seems that when playing with models on a table top many of the tactics of fire, movement and concealment do not work well and so the game has to offer mechanics to represent them.

Not to worry, just an idea being knocked about.

Cheers,
Chris

Hi Chris - I no longer take my Marders for this very reason. Lovely models, effective guns, sitting ducks.

Siggian - I don't think you can do an initiative move at the start of your turn if you've used opp fire in the opponent's turn. I'm pretty sure it's one or the other, not both.

It seems a shame if the only way to get round this apparent non historic outcome is not to field the vehicles in the first place.

Johnboy, you are correct. You cannot do opportunity fire and then use initiative move out the way. So there goes the one way I had thought about making shoot and scoot work.

Chris, I'd play it like you said regarding moving back from the wall. The moment you move, you are out of LOS (some movement occurs before shooting can happen), however, Pete has stated that this is not the case. Before you duck back, the enemy can shoot at you. I remember this because it's not a ruling that I'm particularly fond of because it negates the shoot and scoot tactic. I just wish I could find the topic where this was discussed.

How about giving them something like the recce ability

Due to their shoot and scoot, firing from ambush type doctrine they could

1 only be hit on 6's if in any type of cover
2 suffer no command penalty if 40cms from HQ

&/0r

Allow them to convert all unsaved hits inflicted in an enemy order them into retreat dice.Allow them to retreat up to 20cms instead of 10.
Thus they shoot and scoot automatically (ending further to the rear and possibly beyond terrain, suppressed) or they are KO'd.

There was an idea to increase the lifespan of towed ATGs in a thread not so long ago.

It was something like when firing from a concealed position in cover, rathe than immediately giving away it's position automatically the target would have to make a D6 roll equal or greater than the score required to hit it's attacker. Credit goes to whoever offered this up in the original thread.

This way your concealed AT unit ambushes the enemy armour, then if the enemy spot it unfortunately you're fair game. But if you're in favourable cover the enemy can fluff their 'spot' roll and you scoot off.

Here's the camouflaged ATG thread if it helps...

http://www.blitzkrieg-commander.com/Content/For...

Thanks for the input guys. I think that I am going to try my Shoot and Scoot Command Phase action as noted above and see how it works. This is clean and simple, can be applied to all units without the fuss of determining who can qualify for it, does not require yet another die roll, and gives these very weak units (3 hits; 6 save) a fighting chance.

Although Marders and the like were improvisations, collectively thousands of these types of vehicles were made and it is ridiculous not to use them because the rules make it suicidal to do so.

Cheers,
Chris

To connect this to another thread, something may need to be done to reduce the effectiveness of on table mortars an guns firing indirect as open topped vehicles are way to vulnerable as things stand.

One additional problem with scooting after one round of fire is that while you may survive you don't tend to KO that much. Unless they are hunting in packs!

Yes, but that is a price I think is both accurate and, from a game design perspective, balanced. So, I think this is an easy additional rule that can be applied to any unit (except mortars) without upsetting the game.
Chris

I like your idea Chris. I will give it a try out if I can remember to use it that is!

Sounds good Steve. Please post your thoughts. I am going to try it tomorrow (and hope the players decide to use in their decision making). In lieu of more complex spotting rules I can't think of better way to do this using the existing mechanics. It may be that the spotting idea mentioned earlier is better, but it would have to be thought through as part of the overall spotting system.

Cheers,
Chris

Is it meant that you pay one attack dice or attack dice equal to the value of one dice roll for this action?

You declare a shoot and scoot action and roll for the command. If successful, fire normally, but with a -1 modifier. Apply results and immediately move straight back 1cm (presumably putting blocking cover between and that Opp firing enemy that now can't Opp fire because you disappeared).

Chris

Can you use 'shoot'n'scoot' as an initiative or opportunity action? I would have thought it made sense to allow this.

I suppose so. Initially I thought that it should only be allowed in the command phase but I suppose there is no reason to allow in in those other situations respecting the rules for those circumstances.

Chris

Chris,

Sorry a little late in joining in on this.

Why not simply adopt the CWC rules for stabilisers i.e. shoot then move (but not move then shoot) at -1/-2 as deemed applicable to a particular vehicle etc. Allow full movement - to represent falling back to a second prepared position rather than just out of sight. That would seem to cover the situation

If playing to points you'd have to increase cost. If scenario based then wouldn't matter.