The Commander Series Forum

Hi,

Have just picked up the cwc rulebook to join in with some other guys who play at our gaming club, but just wanted to make sure that i was reading some of the rules right (i'm easy to confuse...)

CO and fixed formation rule
I take it that even if you used fixed formations, the CO can always try to order anyone in any formation in the battlegroup, albeit at -1 command?

rigid doctrine: +1 to cv for same actions
Imagine a formation consisting of 1 x HQ, 2 x T-80, 4 x inf mounted in 2 x BTR
If transports are ignored along with supressed units, and infantry mounted in transports are considered part of the transport unit then does this mean that the HQ could order just the 2 x T-80 to fire and get +1 to cv bonus as everything else is ignored?

But the same wouldn't apply to a formation of T-80's and BMP's because BMP's are IFV rather than transports...?

Steve

Hi Steve: welcome to the dark side of Portbury Knights! I understand the CO still can order anyone not so far ordered or attempted to be ordered by any other HQ.

The rigid doctrine thing has cropped up before similar to this; I understand that the bonus applies if you are declaring that only the T-80's are ordered and they do the same thing. If the BMP's are part of the same formation under the same HQ/CO then the bonus does apply if they all do the same thing, move in the case of BMP's. Others will be along shortly to add their take and welcome.

The -1 for the CO would only apply if they had failed to carryout an order issued by another HQ.

I would say that you had to order the whole unit. The link below kind of covers this question.

http://www.blitzkrieg-commander.com/Content/For...

Good to see you on the forum Steve.

We play the doctrine rule that it's ALL possible units in the ENTIRE formation, i.e. exclude KO'd, suppressed, recce and AA. By doing it this way it really forces the "rigid" player to generally take the SAME type of units in the command. i.e. if a mixed tank & infantry unit saw some enemy armour at say 50cm range they wouldn't get the +1 since whilst the tanks may fire the infantry can't - they're out of range! Hence, the doctrine rule forces a trully authentic force composition. A bttn of tanks - not some really swish western style combined arms combat team!

Rigid doctrine and fixed formations aren't there to make it easier for a player, it's there to make it harder AND much more authentic!

This does crop up time and time again. The rules say "in the formation", NOT "in the entire formation". Hence, the confusion. In a previous thread I recall Pete saying that it's the latter that is correct, but I could be wrong. BUT, anything else just feels really cheesey and wrong to me!

Thanks for the responses so far.

Dr Dave, i totally agree with the example you use regarding firing, thats how i had thought the rule was to be used. My initial question was probably more to do with querying the exclusion of transports carrying infantry.

By the rules the BTRs can be excluded, but it feels slightly wrong that a mixed formation with BTR can gain a benefit that a BMP formation can't - unless this was the original intent.

Excluding AA and recce isn't supported by the rulebook, but is it a convention that most people have decided on using?

Next time i'm at club i'll chat to the other guys and see how they want to play things and go from there.

Steve

Rigid doctrine always raises a host of questions, many of which are rarely settled on the forum! Excluding AA and recce is a house rule really. My key point is that rigid doctrine shouldn't be interpreted as advantageous. Rigid is a disadvantage - never a benefit! That's my feelig on it anyway!

"Rigid is a disadvantage - never a benefit! That's my feelig on it anyway!"

It is one of those situations that is center line of the road IMO. It can be an advantage from the leasdership POV, as is reflected in the rules, but when applied to combat, the "doctrine fire" approach to ridge doctrine should also be reflected (ie all firing units must shoot at same target.) So, you have the benefit of easier command structure, but it can lead to over kill in a combat situation, and other potential problems in a "target rich" environment.

Scott, points taken. I've always viewed the +1 as great for getting you into poistion, since you're all moving (generally) but when combat is joined it usually goes out of the window!

Rigid doctrine came about to give a limited boost to certain armies with low CVs, so rather than see it as a negative, see it as a boon when you get to use it. If the modifier was to apply in all situations, I would've just increased the CV of the command units and done away with the doctrine rule!

I'm going to add a clarification that excludes recce and AA units

Would it be worth clarifying the rule to say that only unarmoured transports are ignored as well?

That way trucks are ignored but armoured transports such as BTRs and M113's which at least have a minimal attack value still have to be considered.

Just my 2 pence.

Steve

"Would it be worth clarifying the rule to say that only unarmoured transports are ignored as well?"

Done

Mmmm…

Pete, does the way you’ve worded that errata update (i.e. that “…unarmoured transport units are *excluded* from the rigid tactical doctrine rule” (my emphasis)) would mean that an entirely truck borne infantry formation (whilst all still so embarked) wouldn’t get the +1 when all driving merrily along but one mounted in, for instance, BTRs would.

That’s not what you were after, is it?

Another question on the rigid docterine, the rules says you can drop units as you go through your command roles, so if in the above example you had a mixed group of tanks and infantry could you just drop the infantry and order the tanks to fire and still get +1?

Rigid doctine, as I understand it only really works if you're using fixed formations. What's really needed here is a clarification of "formation" in the wording of the rigid doctrine rule. Does it mean simply those being ordered, or does the +1 apply to all units (excluding those already discussed) in the ***fixed*** formation? We take it to be the latter. Hence, mixed formations can be a bad idea since they rarely ALL get to do the same thing.

BUMP!

This came up this week. Fixed formation and Rigid doctrine. A couple points, please tell me if i am correct (or not)!
Oh - and sorry for the questions!



1) A "Fixed Formation" is defined before game play and cannot change (without a CO command role to make it happen). This is different from a normal "formation" that everyone uses and can change at will.


2) Rigid +1 bonus to CV only applies if everyone does the same order in the "Fixed Formation"
2.1) ONLY applies to "fixed formations", not "formations" that can change at any time.

2.2) Same order means EVERYONE shoots/moves/deploys.
2.2.1) EVERYONE shoots means that even units that do not have a valid target (blocked line of sight, out or range, unable to harm, etc..) still counts as shooting. They tried to shoot - they just can't.
2.2.1.1) But a force with unarmed transports CANNOT shoot and therefore this order could not be given to a fixed formation and receive the rigid bonus.
2.2.2) EVERYONE moves means everyone must move at least 1/2 distance (in rules - OUCH!)
2.2.2.1) BUT - what happens if the individual units cannot move 1/2 their distance? e.g. moving up to the edge of area terrain. What about "gaming" this an saying they are turning in circles to move 1/2 distance or something? (the 1/2 ruling makes it even more odd to handle in gameplay I think)
2.2.3) EVERYONE deploys means that only transports can deploy - therefore a mixed force could not use the rigid bonus to do this.



3) CO can only order this Fixed Formation if they fail their first HQ command roll.

1/ is correct.

2/ means every one in the "orders group", so with a fixed formation of six tanks, the HQ could order three to move and three to shoot and no one gets the +1. Or he could order three of them to shoot a few times all with the +1, stop, go on to the other three and order them (back at full CV) with the +1 (so long as those three all do the same thing each order!).

What the HQ *can't* do is motivate any units outside his own original, game start formation, ever.

3/ I guess you could use the CO before the HQ, but it's likely to be rare as they're usually best used to order failed groups?

Not quite right, tp. To get the +1, ALL the units in the (pre-defined/fixed) formation (excluding soft tranports, recce, support and suppressed units IIRC) need to be under command, otherwise it is too open to abuse.

No, I don't think so - never actually seen it played that way and I don't think it's the case.

The confusion comes from the use of the word formation in two contexts, and Pete has commented on it before - there's a formation set at game start for a HQ to order - in the case of rigid those being the *only* troops that HQ can order. *And* formation as used for orders, which for Rigid can be a subset of the "set up" formation.

Two different things

*hit save a bit quick...

So long as all the units in the "orders formation" are doing the same thing you'll get the +1, but you don't have to order all the units in the "set up formation" all at the same time all the time.

So long as you don't fluff a command roll you can then switch to the other units exactly as normal. Of course, you're gambling on getting the activations for the first group and then switching to the second before you fluff it and leave them sitting there like lemons, but them's the breaks!

Completely not how I was reading it...... where is the penalty for "fixed formation" over a normal formation? Seems all bonus...

I like it!

The penalty is that a HQ cannot order troops out of its initial, pregame set formation. And those troops can't receive orders from any other HQ, either. So if your HQ is suppressed, knocked out or just in the wrong position you're SOL.

If the troops all get KO'd your HQ becomes nothing more than a minor AA stand, as well. No shifting it to back up other HQs in case they fail etc.

Add to that that Rigid doctrine have appallingly low Initiative distances and usually bad CVs then you really, really need the +1!

Thought of one way around this, if you issue an order wanting the +1, that means you can only order those troops with that HQ,

eg. 9 tanks in a battalion, HQ orders 6 of them to move and fire, gets the +1, makes the roll, then shoots again with the same 6 tanks, gets the +1 and makes the roll, but he cannot then order the other 3 tanks even though he hasn't failed a roll yet as he was occupied with the first group.

If you wanted to move the other 3, then you would have to sacrifice the +1 for ordering the rest to do the ame thing?