The Commander Series Forum

This has got to have been asked before, but cannot find it.

On the quick reference sheet it says to work out how many dice to throw when firing at a target, then to group these into cluster corresponding with the to hit number (4 for open, 5, cover, 6 hard cover) then work out hits, damage and suppression for these groups in turn(or this is how I read it), so if the target is suppressed in the first group, it can be made to retreat with follow on hits.

This (unless I am completely off my rocker) isn't mentioned at all in the main rules,is this a hangover from BKC or an optional rule I cannot see?

The firing example (page 22) has a Leo firing at a T72 in the open firing with 7 dice, but it reads that all 7 where rolled at once.


The text on the second page of the QRS, the section that has me confused is item 2

Testing For Casualties
1. take the attack value of each unit attacking the same target
2. apply any modifiers to the attack value of each unit, then roll this number of dice, grouped by the score to hit
3. one hit is achieved for each score equal to or greater than the score required to cause hits (see Hit Definitions)
4. roll one die for each new hit taken - one hit is saved for each score equal to or greater than the save value
5. if the total number of hits against the target is equal to or greater than its hits value, it is knocked-out
6. unless the unit was knocked-out, roll one die for each hit taken in the current attack
7. the unit will become suppressed if any die score equal to or greater than the score required to cause hits
8. if already suppressed, total the scores and move the unit this distance directly away from the nearest attacking unit

Have a largish game latter today, will try and convince the guys to try this out.

What isn't mentioned? That pretty much sounds like the basic combat mechanism to me. Although I have been known to be wrong before... from time to time...

So if you have 12 dice attacking a tank in the open, you roll 4 dice, work out hit, damage and suppression, then the next 4 dice, then the last 4 die.

Nope - assuming your 12 dice all need the same to-hit score, roll them all at once. Any hits out of the pile, then get rolled against the armour of the target (if it has any). Any failed armour saves then get rolled for suppression (or fall-back if the target is already suppressed).

So, for example:
3 tanks firing with 4 attacks each = 12 attacks
Target tank is in the open, over half range, and facing the firers (i.e no flank shots) = 4+ to hit

Assume 6 hits:
roll these 6 dice against the armour of the target (eg 5+): 2 saves.

The remaining 4 hits no go onto the target. Assuming it has sufficient hits to survive this pounding, roll these 4 dice for suppression. If any of them equal or beat the targets cover value (4+ in this case) then it is suppressed.

If it was already suppressed, then roll the 4 dice and sum them: this becomes the distance the target falls back. Greater than 10cm = KO'd!

If you have different modifiers for different firers, then it's a good idea to roll these separately, or use different coloured dice.

Hope that clarifies things!

KD

The actual mechanics are fine, it was just the one phrase "grouped by score to hit"

As the score to hit is based on the targets type of cover, most shots will need the same to hit number, the only case being shooting at a target from different faces, eg taking cover from linear terrain and being fired on two seperate directions, therefore taking cover from only one point of attack.

The way I though it read (on the QRS not the rules) was that with grouping to hit die into groups of 4, 5, or 6 increases the chance of getting the fall back results, as a taget could be suppressed in the first gropup, then forced back in the secondd group.

We didn't play it like that yesterday, but there again the russian/Poles where firing battalion shoots against single Leos, with the predicable results.

OOB for those that think we are insane was

Warsaw Pact

2 tank regiments (1 Polish 2ndd line)
1 MRR

total 36 T80's, 27 T55Imp, 36 BMP2, 9 BMP 1, plus arty and other support. Must post the piccies somewhere

Unless you do something like different coloured dice, the only way you're going to know whether a dice should have required a four or five is to roll them separately - ie in groups. (like what KD said, now that I've read it properly....) However, you only dice for fall back if the hits are cause by a subsequent order. So you played it right.

The score to hit will also be different if there are infantry and AFVs in an artillery fire zone.

One situation that comes to mind where the "grouped by score-to-hit" would make sense is if the target unit is next to some linear terrain (say a stone wall), and some of the units firing in a given round are on the same side of the wall as the target (hitting on a 4+) and some of the firing untis are on the other side of the wall from the target (hitting on a 5+). These two sets of dice should be rolled separately, or with dice color-coded to distinguish them as to the minimum score to hit.

That said, my understanding is that all of these hits, assuming they're fired in the same round of firing, get applied in the same way; that is, the hits are applied, and if the target is NOT surpressed yet then ALL of the hits inflicted in this round indicate a die rolled for suppression; if the target IS already suppressed, then ALL of the hits inflicted in this round indicate a die rolled for fall-back.

For example, if the units on the same side of the wall as the target roll 2, 3, 3, 4, 4, & 6, and those on the other side roll 2, 2, 3, 4, 5, & 5, then the first group inflicts 3 hits, and the second inflicts 2, for a total of 5. The target takes 5 hits, and (if it's not knocked out thereby, and not already suppressed) 5 dice are rolled for suppression -- perhaps broken down by the to-hit scores necessary (three needing 4+, two needing 5+): that I'm not sure of. If the target WAS already suppressed, and if the five hits don't knock it out, then five dice are rolled and totalled for the number of centimeters of fall-back.

As always, of course, I haven't the rules at hand here at work, so if I'm wrong, do please correct me!

P.S.

If the same firing group were then issued another "Fire" order in the same command phase, hits would be rolled the same way, but would be added to those already applied this turn. Rolling for suppressions/fall-back would then occur as I described above (unless I'm wrong!).

Yes you are right, Badger