The Commander Series Forum

Here's one I've been pondering: If a mobile AA unit is targeted by an ATGM team and opts to try & evade the shot (and then survives the ATGM attack and isn't suppressed), would they still be able to shoot at any aircraft that then fly onto the table, or are they too busy evading?

I'd say too busy.

IanS

And me ??

Rules say any unsuppressed AAA or SAM can fire as many times in a turn as it has visible targets - this came up in some ATGM discussions.

My feeling would be evading would pretty well suppress the vehicle as avoiding imminent sharp temperature increases would result in new underwear being required - house rule time.

I will add it to the House Rules. One question though even if the evade fails and it is hit but not suppressed should the unit not be allowed to fire as in theory it has still tried to evade and got hit. If the player announces 'evade' then he cannot use the unit for AA that turn. Sound about right?

Cheers

Richard P

Sounds pretty fair.
Note that rules refer to an unsupressed and deployed AA/SAM unit being eligible to fire (p31 Anti Aircraft fire). So maybe all AA weapons should be required to deploy to be able to fire in AA mode? Even mobile AA/SAM needs to deploy radar and typically needed to be stationary in our period (not so much later, but still generally so) to engage aircraft with any chance of success.
Any AA/SAM that attempts to evade would therefore no longer be deployed and would not be eligible to fire until redeployed. Wouldn't therefore be suppressed or suffer any other suppression effects ... assuming it survived the ATGW of course!
Similar end result, different reasoning.

Sounds good to me

Btw, for mobile AA guns like ZSU 23-4 Shilka, Gepard, etc. (as opposed to mobile SAMs), which have a ground fire capability, using ground fire would also mean they weren't deployed for AA fire, so wouldn't be able to do both in the same turn. I believe that is accurate, but happy to be shot down (ha ha) by anyone with better knowledge.
Cheers,
MarkJ

So are we saying AA/SAMs can't fire in the opponents turn if they moved in their own turn, or are we saying they can't move in their own turn if they fired in the previous opponents turn. It will be tricky adding further complexity viz needing to deploy as an action, I can see that turning into lots of bookkeeping or I did/you didn't conversations.

Cheers, Andy

You have a good point, but I think it is probably sensible to stop them being able to shoot up some infantry, shoot down a jet, shoot up some more infantry, then kill a copter without breaking a sweat ... every turn.
Alternatively, as there aren't millions of 'em, maybe we just say "what the hell" and let them get on with it? As long as we are all playing by the same rules, I guess I can see the arguments on either side.
Cheers,
MarkJ

I agree, anything to stop Ian using all 350 stands of SAMs that he claims are attached to his battalion CO. I'm sure he can provide TO&Es to justify them as well!!! I like the idea of not being able to fire AA if you move in your previous turn - if your opponent puts air on the table they are too busy setting up and banging the computer to get it working. If they are forced to move, they have to spend next turn setting up again. Rewards leapfrogging your air defences and lets your opponent have a pop at suppressing them. If they shoot at ground targets, they aren't watching the skies.

Cheers, Andy

He probably wrote them

I think there is a big difference in this regard between an SPAAG and a battery of SAMs. One has considerable set-up time in most cases and the other doesn't.

I HAVE NEVER CLAIMED 350 STANDS of SAM with MY BHQ

IanS

Yet ...

Sorry it must have been 250

I think that a house rule that if an AA unit attempts to evade an ATGM shot (and survives) then they cannot then fire at enemy aircraft for the rest of the active player's turn is a good one. Don't know how often it would crop up mind...
I'm not sure about not letting them fire at aircraft if they've been shooting at ground targets. That seems to be a bit complicated and not appropriate for the level of abstract that the game is aiming for. If a tank unit opportunity fires, for example, we don't check if it moved during the previous turn and then add the s1 or s2 stabilisation modifier.
I would rather think that the low armour saves of AA units would dictate doctrine and stop them targeting ground units on a regular basis. If they are up front, taking on tanks & infantry then they can kick out a lot of firepower, but wouldn't last very long. Behind the "teeth" arms, providing top cover, is where they provide the best service. The only time I have used AA units against ground targets was in a 1960s game, when my West German M42 Dusters were forced to try to help my M48s hold back an advancing wave of T55s. It was an unequal struggle that didn't end well for the Germans...

I tend to agree Andy and will add it to the House Rules which will be available in a couple of weeks once Gordon is back off holiday and has double checked them all.

Cheers

Richard P