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Count Belisarius
United Kingdom
Joined 03/04/10
Last Visit 17/06/19
455 Posts
Posted on 11 July 2015 at 19:45:14 GMT
Hi,
I know a lot of people us extra HQ stands to reflect the tactical flexibility of say NATO forces, where they have a couple of HQ stand with a battalion rather than just the 'official' battalion HQ. I use 40x40 for my HQs and although I know the stand just represents the command and control element I find it a little weird having the extra 'large' bases on table. Is there another way of doing this? Or representing it?
A small marker that you attach to a coy to indicate it has its own command roll?
Just marking a tank as the CHQ?
Keep the 'physical' HQ stand but allow it more rolls? Range?

Any thoughts?

Or should I just accept it's how the rules work? Smile

Andy
sediment
United Kingdom
Joined 05/09/09
Last Visit 17/10/21
567 Posts
Posted on 11 July 2015 at 20:04:38 GMT
Hi Andy,

I'm working on my Brits for the upcoming Crisis Point game in September. I'm working on an HQ stand per squadron/company to reflect the NATO flexibility. Company/squadron HQs just get a spare tank or suitable command vehicle and some suitable figures on a 40x40mm stand (fighting vehicles are on 40x20s). Battalion HQs get two vehicles (e.g. a Chieftain and a Ferret). The CO gets three vehicles and a nice scenic base! The only reason I use the larger stands is so I can tell them apart from a distance.

Cheers, Andy
Huey11
United Kingdom
Joined 28/02/11
Last Visit 11/02/19
82 Posts
Posted on 11 July 2015 at 20:39:17 GMT
Ditto.
I use 40 x 40 bases for all command stands.
One vehicle for FAO and FACs,
two vehicles for HQs
and three vehicles for the CO.

(and my Recce elements (30 x 30)get a tree to differentiate them...)

Back to your original point, I think it's right to have many soft skins following the armour around. It's probably quite realistic!

H
patkany
Earth
Joined 10/07/14
Last Visit 20/09/16
85 Posts
Posted on 11 July 2015 at 20:54:28 GMT
Yeah, just add a truck/jeep to the coy hq -and some communications/radio vehicle, dedicated HQ units (like M577s, etc) to the BNHQ Smile

I use softskin vehicles (usually jeep sized ones) as FACs, and armored units for FAOs (ACRV, FISTV, etc).

usually round bases for HQ&FAC/FAO, "arrow" shaped base for Recce, and square for normal units, and bigger bases for infantry, since in real life they have bigger area to cover, than armored units.
Dr Dave
Wales
Joined 08/10/07
Last Visit 04/11/19
936 Posts
Posted on 12 July 2015 at 14:26:04 GMT
I'd field a certain ratio of HQs to units regardless of nationality. If not, then the Soviets etc get penalised 3 times, namely:
- lower CV
- fewer HQs
- rigid doctrine

For my Syrians and Israelis I use 1 HQ per 5 or so tanks.
Caratacon
England
Joined 26/02/13
Last Visit 12/07/20
129 Posts
Posted on 12 July 2015 at 15:01:52 GMT
I use typically 2 HQs per battalion for a NATO army, with 3 reserved for those who habitually cross attach at company level. i.e. UK & USA. 1 HQ per battalion for WP or equivalents, like Arab, African, 3rd World in general, etc.

Without using more than 1 HQ, I find that NATO armies can be disadvantaged against WP as they tend to have larger battalions. A typical WP tank battalion will have HQ +7, at most HQ +10 at full strength. A NATO tank battalion will have say HQ +12-14 at full strength. There's a similar ratio for infantry. NATO's higher command value is therefore offset by less flexibility in manoeuvre, which doesn't seem right.

I can happily justify the 2nd HQ as NATO has much more staff at a much lower level, roughly at a NATO bn = WP regt level, so the second HQ at bn level is effectively a staff/TOC HQ. I often make this one command level lower than the main HQ, e.g. HQ9 for CO, HQ8 for TOC. Cross-attached companies also attract one command level lower for the 'extra' HQs.

Tbh, I don't see rigid doctrine as a penalty, but as a bonus. It can make WP units much more powerful and they are still flexible because of their relatively small size. If WP units are represented at the appropriate force levels (and I don't mean points value), they will have lots of HQs and are pretty scary and difficult to stop! If they are at 1:1 unit strength or anything like against NATO, they will indeed have fewer HQs and will probably get wiped.

I think the command range bit in CWC in particular is a bit obsolete - less so in BKC. I often tend to ignore it or use house rules where things like ECM are involved. There have been previous discussions on various mechanisms in this forum.

Cheers,

MarkJ
GrinGrinGrin
Count Belisarius
United Kingdom
Joined 03/04/10
Last Visit 17/07/19
455 Posts
Posted on 12 July 2015 at 22:04:19 GMT
I'm all in favour of the extra HQs for NATO and the like. I think I just find having lots of extra 40x40s a bit cluttered. I like MarkJ's idea of using a TOC HQ at one level lower. Maybe having some generic smaller HQ stands (say on 40x30) that can be used anywhere.

But if the command range is possibly moot in CWC could you just stick with the single HQ but allow it two rolls? One at a lower level?

A
ianrs54
England
Joined 08/11/08
Last Visit 19/01/23
1348 Posts
Posted on 13 July 2015 at 08:10:18 GMT
Personally I use 2 HQ's for NATO btns, seems to be enough. 1 per company is a tad excessive.

IanS
Dr Dave
Wales
Joined 08/10/07
Last Visit 04/11/19
936 Posts
Posted on 13 July 2015 at 09:46:01 GMT
I'd be interested to hear why some think the distance penalty is a bit irrelevant in CWC - I've not seen this discussed before.
toxicpixie
United Kingdom
Joined 09/03/11
Last Visit 17/07/21
2177 Posts
Posted on 13 July 2015 at 11:23:13 GMT
The distance penalty is usually the killer 0_o

I'd second your comments about HQ numbers. Given the restrictions of Rigid Doctrine it doesn't make them over powered with more HQs - they can't actually command other formations anyway.

Think of it as the detailed break down and planning and well rehearsed drills that they attempted, combined with understrength formations, forward detachments and so on.

Russian doctrine (and practise) was a lot more flexible than NATO seemed to think - even in the '80s we appeared to be fixated on the "we should have won!" memoirs of the Germans on the receiving end of a tactically flexible, mission oriented and recce pumped operational artist of extreme skill.
Big Insect
United Kingdom
Joined 27/04/10
Last Visit 12/10/20
453 Posts
Posted on 17 July 2015 at 16:17:46 GMT
It's an interesting discussion.
I've based my Cold War command as follows:

60mm x 60mm for Commanding Officer
40mm x 40 mm for HQs
40mm Circles* for FACs (2mm lazer-cut MDF from ERM)
30mm Hexagons for FAOs (2mm lazer-cut MDF from ERM)
2-pence pieces for Recce
1-pence pieces for Snipers
(*NB: the 40mm circles for FAC looks huge but I don't tend to have many of these as in my thinking air support is usually a Brigade level asset anyway)

I'd always assumed 1 x HQ per Battalion - unless the troops were something special such as Elites (like Paras or Marines or Special Forces etc) which I gave 2 HQs.
I downgrade all my Reserve or Territorial forces CVs by -1 command point from Regulars and upgrade the Elites by +1. Special Forces I give +2 (so Specials: CV11 / Elites:CV9 / Regulars: CV8 / Reserves etc. CV7)

In FWC I use a lot of HQs for both my Neo-Soviets & also my Orange Orks (Hunter-Scavengers) as I have learnt from bitter experience that big formations that fail or blunder are a sure way to lose a game very quickly.

I can see why there is the desire to have more HQs for CWC Soviets, but does it give the correct 'game play'? More HQs actually slows the game down dramatically ... just a thought Smile
vicmagpa1
United States
Joined 05/05/15
Last Visit 20/06/16
32 Posts
Posted on 29 September 2015 at 02:18:58 GMT
we use poker chips for cic and command. started using 3 vehicles for cic.Smile
ianrs54
England
Joined 08/11/08
Last Visit 19/01/23
1348 Posts
Posted on 29 September 2015 at 08:25:42 GMT
Soviets - 1 Per btn if Tank or mounted MR, 2 for Dismounted MR, and 2 for the divisional recce btn (well 3 if I use it's airbourne component)

NATO - 2 per battalion normally.

FAO - 1 per battalion for all.

IanS
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