The Commander Series Forum

A question came up in our game last night. We were playing a 1985 French and Czech armoured encounter. The French fielded an AMX-30 battalion and a battalion of AMX-10RCs. In the rule book these latter are listed as recce and pointed as such, although we don't use the points values, preferring to use "real-world" units.

So, how should we handle the AMX-10RCs? Should they be just exceptionally puny armour, with a big gun, or should they be treated as recce and allowed the +1 cover benefit and 360 degree observation. In reality, these AMX-10RC (and ERC-90s as well) are usually handed out to other battalions in squadrons of three platoons to beef up the recce ability, but they also form the core of light armoured divisions, especially units of the Legion assigned to FAR. The enhanced cover modifier does give them a bit of battlefield survivability as they only get 4 hits, save on 6 as a basic, so are pretty vulnerable otherwise.

Anyone have any thoughts or strong opinions? I'm guessing this might have an impact on other organisation, especially those light forces which are so prevalent in modern armies but would affect units like CAST in Norway, M3s in US armoured cavalry regiments and Scorpions and Scimitars in British recce battalions.

Cheers, Andy

If they're in the role of fighting troops, use them as normal everyday stands would be my take. I can't imagine they'd do well in high intensity warfare tbh.

If you were using points then knock them down by 20pts and remove the recce abilities. If not, then I think it's suck it up and hope time :/

Many of those organisations are covering forces. Just because a reece Btn is so designated it does not mean that it is a scout unit. Where it has medium or heavy vehicles it will use those in a shoot/scoot role, to inflict delay from the FEBA(forward edge of the battle area) back to the MLR(Main Line of resistance).

In the scenario Andy is talking about he had to exit his forces over the Czech base line, and Luke with the Czechs had to take road running parallel to the French base edge. The 10RC's operated in two groups of 6, with HQ's and like wheeled tanks.

There is also the use of that vehicle in Motorised Rgts as a replacement for the AMX-13.

IanS

That's really what the original question asked, which was if they are used as light battalions should they get the +1 to hit and 360 spotting. As it would be the same crews doing the recce and screening roles, I would have thought the crews would be recce trained and therefore should benefit. If nothing else, it makes them just a little bit more survivable (using shoot and scoot on a local level) when they come up against the big boys. As TP says, otherwise suck it up. Presumably the same would be true for the Brit recce regiments in Scimitars and Scorpions if used in the screening role?

In the game, the 12 platoons of 10RCs held up and degraded 2 batts of T-72s with attached BMP Cos for 4 turns, so it wasn't too bad a performance from those tin cans on wheels.

Looking forward to the big game! Cheers, Andy

If you did count them ALL as recce then don't forget that they can't shoot in the command phase! Plus the nearest hq or co will only benefit once per turn from a potential command bonus.

Personally, I'd treat them as puny armour with a big gun, OR house rule it from BKCII that they are 'recce support' and so don't suffer from the -1 per 20cm penalty when receiving orders. Either way I'd avoid the unrealistic situation of having an entire bttn of recce units on table - avoid letting their title dictate their actual battle role. The reality of too much recce / scouting is that it would simply clog the airwaves and swamp any commander with too much information - yes, you can have too much information!

I like the idea of 'recce support' and the unit not suffering from the -1 per 20cm when receiving orders. Gives the feel of a unit experienced in operating at long distances from HQ.

Cheers

Richard P

One of the Israeli brigades on the Golan in '73 had what they called a "recce" company - 3 platoons of Centurions! I'd be inclined to treat them as recce support units, perhaps one as true recce - but it seems to be a real waste of a Centurion's gun, especially with such a high CV for the HQ!

You could use "Independent" from the FWC calculator for that, and say it also grants the recce cover increase versus direct fire.

TBH my personal opinion is that light armour in "shoot & scoot" is actually going to be no better than using a "proper tank" and should be engaged normally. Recce units actually recce'ing are not a whole formation, and are likely as not dismounted and crawling forwards, sticking sensor masts carefully up and not exposing the vehicles etc etc. Whereas if you actually want to fight, you got to fight...

Never send a Velite to do a Centurions job

Recce support sounds like a good solution. If they don't suffer command distance penalties then there is better chance for them to shoot on one order and scoot on another successful order, back in to cover or out of sight. I guess that would put them on a par with the AEC and Staghound units from BKCII.

Cheers, Andy

I just remembered that one of the DAK Aufklarungs abt (33?) had an AT platoon and a platoon with captured 25pdrs!

I think it's a case of recce by name, but not by nature!

Bit like the Brit "Armoured Recce Regt." in Cromwells - they got paired with one of the infantry battalions from the Division and in practise were just another armoured Regt. ...

Exactly