The Commander Series Forum

Hi all, I was scrolling through the forum today and I saw that the ATGW "turn" subjetc had been rulled out for good by Pete : ATGW fires once in a game turn, and not once in a player turn.

This raised an other question in my mind, and sorry if it has been ruled out before :

My question is : is this statement correct : "IATW can fire once per game turn" ?

Answer much appreciated -I'm a big fan of my RPG-26-, thanks in advance !

Yes that is correct

Thank you very much Pete ! Quick and precise as always.

Still, if I can share my opinion with the community...

Talking purely in terms of game equilibrium -not histoy, nor doctrines, nor technical capabilities-.

Do you guys find any use for ATGW units ? I mean despite using it to stick with historical TOE. Frankly I don't get the point of a 215 points unit -talking BRDM 2 here- wich fires once per game turn, give the option for your target to evade, got 3 hits and 6+ save and even if striking the blow without save will not one-shot a tank. And you have to consider that a Leopard 2A5 cost 220 points !

I'm not thinking the whole game mechanism should be changed, cause I love the whole set of rules as it is and I think it make a quite decent representation of reality -works fine with helicopters according to me-. I just think all ATGW specialist ground unit should be way less expensive. Probably around 100 points.

Especialy if you compare it to the price of helicopters : a Gazelle cost 150 points !

Any thought or house rules on that ?

So what are we saying here?

IFV ATGW can only fire in Over watch.
ATGW fire in their own turn or can fire once in the players turn and once in the opposing players turn??
Ta
Jon
Still confused

What I understand, and after an extensive reading on the subject -wich is in my opinion one of the most heavily debated topic here- is that the final ruling is as such :

ATGW and IATW : once per game turn. Which means that you get to shoot your ATGW/IATW during your command phase OR for initiative fire. Not both, you've got to choose.

IFV ATGW : you can only shoot as an intiative fire. And of course, once.

So, yes, ATGW specialist units are lame, even compared to IFV ATGW and even more compared to Helicopters. That was the point of the rest of my long message...

Again : I have no problem with the game mechanism regarding those weapons, I just thinks specialist ATGW units are way overpriced.

Hope it helps !

That's right, I saw that also on many topics, my stand on the subject is not original at all.

But my point was really to say, don't change the whole mechanism cause it works fine for other units. Specialist ATGW vehicules and ATGW team cost is the only real and simple problem here.

By the way I was thinking of trying without point values, it seems really interesting. How to you handle it ? At what level do you play ? And do soviet "realistic" formations stand a chance against americans for instance ?

I'd just let specialist ATGW units fore multiple times per game turn tbh, and keep the points the same. Reckon that would about work out...

Do you mean letting them fire as any other unit ? As long as orders goes, fire goes ?

On first thought I think I do agree with you.

Actually that would creates units a bit more powerfull than tanks but way more fragile and more expensive... It kind of make sense to me !

You would get out of the cover, land a sure blow but if you don't manage to hide again the answer would be fatal. Kind of looks like what that weapons are designed for.

Yes, the more I tkink of it, the more I like it. This could really give those unit a new role on the battlefield, without a real small change in the rules.

Thanks toxicpie, I've got to try that.

They'd still be a bit useless come the mid 80's widespread use of effective Chobham and ERA but prior to that they'd be a terror. Which you can easily suppress with arty & air, or overwatching units...

So, a bit like actual combined arms

Absolutely ! And I think they would remain descent for the 80's, also they could be used to effectively clean up a building from its infantry. Isn'it the actual use of those weapons in Afghanistan ?

Well I do love the idea, especialy its simplicity. I got to try it.

Would you think the rulling would go something like this :

Units classed as Anti-tank and infantry using ATGW do fire as normal units.

Tank ATGW and IFV ATGW fire once in a player's turn.

IATW fires once in a player's turn.

Yeah, that's what I'd go with.

Anything listed as ATGW or Infantry Support (ATGW) fires once per successful command roll, anything else once only per game turn (and in the case of IFVs only on Ops Fire).

Minimal changes, minimal fuss.

Okay, I will do around 5 games with that if my usual partners agree to.

I go for : infantry ATGW and anti-tank units once per successful command roll.
Anything else including IATW, once per turn, and IFV only for ops fire.

Let you know in some weeks when the testing is done.

From a previous post from Ian Shaw, I think infantry ATGW should be limited to one fire per turn as well due to limited man pack carrying capability and limited reloads in vehicles. I seem to remember him indicating Milan reloads were restricted to c. 5 rounds per team on the move (interestingly my uncle carried a similar number of mortar rounds during the Suez Crisis). I seem to remember Ian suggested in prepared defences there might be more ready use rounds available.

Agree entirely about dedicated ATGW vehicles though as they are currently one shot wonders according to my experience - they don't tend to survive op fire and the following enemy turn.

Cheers

Andy

If Infantry Support ATGW are limited to one per turn (which probably isn't unreasonable, but then as you say - what about mortars with limited ammo loads?), then they should come down in points severely as well...

I wouldn't be averse to that, lugging something like a Milan is hard work

@ Mark

Thank you very much for taking the time to explain to me the whole « not using point » system thing. It's always a pleasure to get experience from long time players.

Well, I'm also playing 1:1 at 6mm scale, usually the 80's but sometimes more recent. Culturaly me and my group of players are coming from WH so we stick with what we know : point based system.

I did not understand what you mean when you say firing by platoon or activate by platoon / company. Probably because we are not using fixed formations (seemed to be unfair to the soviet player : aka me).

Also, I am wondering, are your games very long ? Usually we are playing around 2000 points for the attacker, wich makes small battlegroups but game nights are still pretty long nights.

Well it is hard to describe how you play, really the only thing is to play with different players from different clubs to see how one handle it... Thank you anyway for your answer, much appreciated.

After testing the ATGW thing maybe we will go on for some not point based games. I will let you know how we are managing that if you're interested.


@ Andy

Thank you as well for your answer, as I said before : I do understand the realistic reason behind this limitation. I'm strictly speaking game mechanism / equilibrium here.

Considering efficacity, take the BRDM-2 against one of the crappyest tank of the 80's : the AMX-30 B2 (as you can see, I'm not chauvinistic). Half range, the tank is in the open and backwards. That will be 8 dices : in terms of statistics 4 of them will score a hit... This tank got 5 Hits.

And you're right, the BRDM will not survive to see the next turn !

Really without using Toxicpie proposition I don't see how those unit could be worth their cost. Or it is needed to downgrade their cost a lot. But a small rule adjustement seems an esayer way than to go units by units and reconsidering their value.

Hadrien, I have the same problem with USMC LAV-25 TOWs. What seems to work is to use combined arms techniques. Hit the armour with artillery or air assets to put some hits on it. Only reveal the ATGM units to fire when they are more likely to get a kill. Your opponents AMX-30s will soon be burning. However, still expect to be targeted by any survivors and any enemy air or artillery assets in response. This is something I will soon be facing myself as I'm putting together a French armoured division from French II corps for next years megagame in Chester.

However, I agree that dedicated ATGM vehicles should be allowed to fire more than once, they are equipped with ample reloads and usually have efficient loading systems or multiple launchers. It's really only the IATGW that are man packed or add-on launchers on non-dedicated vehicles, like the BMP-1, that should be restricted to once per turn.

Cheers

Andy

Tnaks for all your insights on the subject, I will wrap my mind around that. There is in deed pros and cons regarding ATGW and as I saw on the forum, it is a very debated topic.

I think I will build up my opinion by testing Toxicpie solution, then try to move my group of players toward non point games. I love your story about your accountant friend Mark ! Indeed, 60 T-80 should be a terrifying sight...

Nice to hear about your French Battlegroup Andy ! If you need first hand info on the french army I'm right here. You're thinking II corp, the one in Germany if I'm not mistaking. Well, if you play it next year you could have a little thought for the 110eme Regiment d'Infanterie, last french unit standing in Germany, it is going to be disolved... The end of an era I guess ! You will have some prestigious units under your command, hope they will be fit for the task.

I'm glad I had that many answers for you anyways, it is fine to see such an active community for this game.

I too thought the points were too high for ATGW, but after quite a few games we have found that ATGW dominate the battlefield very quickly. We generally only have about 10 armoured vehicles per side so a few ATGW can get rid of these very quickly, especially with TOW getting 8 dice!
I guess it becomes a balance depending on how many troops you field.

We also don't use points, just putting everything we have on the table! But out of interest I do calculate the points to make sure we are not way out of balance...always the way in a painting arms race!!!!

Hi all !

So I as told you last time I did 5 games with the house rule regarding ATGW.

This house rule is this : ATGW units can shoot every time they receive an order during the command phase. They can also shoot an opportunity fire.
ATGW mounted in soviet tanks can shoot once per player turn
IFV ATGW can shoot only in opportunity.
IATW can shoot once per player turn.

Well it works great, ATGW are finally worth the price. Definitely something I recommand.

Cool beans

I'll suggest that for the Club to try when we next play!

Well, you had the idea, I thought you were already playing like that !

And in the end you don't shoot that much during a game : you take a long time finding your correct spot but when you're in it it really is worth it. I mean with this rule I don't think ATGW units are shooting more than their real ammunition capability.

Because those units are still very fragile, you have to be very cautious but for the price, with this rule, it is now worth it.

Also, consider that we are playing in the 80's, don't know what this rule would do for an other timeframe.

Let me know once you did a couple of games !

No, it's something I'd been mulling over - but if you;ve playtested a few games for me now I'll definitely roll it out to the chaps