The Commander Series Forum

In the preceding thread about ATGW opp fire, Pete says that an ATGW unit that calls opp fire on an enemy unit as it fires at the ATGW unit gets to fire even though it is destroyed by the first firer.

Can Pete please clarify this ruling (which doesn't appear in the book)?

Is it the case that even if the unit calling opp fire is destroyed by the initiative unit firer it still gets to carry out opp fire?

This came up again last night for us, but this time just normal tanks firing.

Active player commands his unit to "fire" at a unit.
Inactive player wants to opportunity fire. He became suppressed after the active player fired.

The rules as written lead me to believe that he can return fire (op fire) after active players fires, regardless of the outcome.

Common sense tells me that he cannot fire since he he is NOW suppressed (even though he was not when the turn/command order was given).

Which is correct? (We are heading towards some house rules on op fire and ATGW in general I think...)

Units can't fire when suppressed, so no, they can't use opp fire.

Just to beat this topic down.... (we are finding op fire VERY deadly)

Player X is active and giving an order to Fire
Player Y want to use opportunity fire (currently not suppressed).


X fires and suppresses Y. Y's units that are suppressed can no longer use op fire. Correct? (do they take the command penalty next turn for attempting to op fire?)

If this is the case then I imagine an ATGW weapon that becomes suppressed or killed actually cannot use op fire?


Sub question
Rigid Formation. Only one unit stand uses op fire, I am assuming that the entire formation then suffers from the -1 command penalty during their next command phase?

Rigid formations are a point of contention. You don't have to order all of the units in a formation at the same time, so in that case you could leave out the offending unit that op fired and not get the -1.

But you wouldn't then be eligible for the +1 for all units in a rigid formation doing the same thing!

Andy

I think I see the contention

(I tend to agree with sediment on this one... rigid = RIGID!)

With Rigid doctrine, you can't exclude any units in order to gain the +1 bonus - it's all or nothing.

Re: Op Fire - that's correct.

Pete, twith the rigid, that seems to go against what has been said before,

if a rigid formation has nine models, and you order just six of them to move, then those six get the +1.

No, it's clear in the rule book (as far as I'm concerned) - all units in the formation, excluding suppressed units, recce units, AA units and unarmoured transport.

ok, does that mean you can only use rigid docturine with fixed formations.

That's the way we do it...

The contention is that some people think a "rigid" formation can change every turn. It believe the intent is that a "rigid" formation is created at the start of the game and stays the same throughout.

No moving 6 of 9 tanks to get +1 for the 6 tanks. ALL 9 need to move to get the +1. If one tank Op Fires, the whole rigid formation suffer the -1 penalty.

BUT!...... can you "order/command" a change in formation contents and still remain "rigid"?(this forum topic has become polluted!)

atLonnie - this came up a couple of weeks ago. I'd thught from previous discussion & the wording on the Battlegroup generator the bonus covered the units within the formation that you had under orders at the point you issue them. I'm wrong, as Pete says above it's the whole formation as set under the starting allocation of battlegroups.

I'm not convinced I agree (or at least think there's really good scope for "better" rigid doctrine troops to work that way - eg Late WW2 Sovs (some), GSFG in CWC etc), but that's as he's written as the err, write

We certainly play it that it's ALL of the fixed formation - as Pete says here. Hence if you have a bttn of 9 x T55 then that's the formation for the entire game - Ahmen - no changes during the game (not yet anyway - but that's flexible doctrine). If you order them all: then get the +1, if you only order 6, then that's a more complex thing for your (rudimentary) command and control system to deal with, hence you revert to the basic CV. Waving flags to the companies is easy, trying to explain that this order only applies to a few of them isn't so simple....

Hence, we tend not to mix troops types. Fixed formations are either tanks, infantry, infantry support etc... You just have to really think about how the battle is going to be fought. Russian tanks and tank-riders under one HQ are a "NO-NO". Take an HQ for the tanks and an extra for the infantry.

For a Sov bttn of 9 BMP and 9 infantry, I'd take 2 HQs!

House rule time here.

If a HQ wants to issue orders that confer the +1 he can do so with any/all of the troops under his control, but they are the only troops he can order that turn, and every order given must be the same.

eg, 6 tanks out of 89 can see the enemy,3 are one move away from doing so, therefore the HQ has the following options

1)Order the 6 to fire, and 3 to move - no plus 1

2)Order the 6 to fire with a plus 1, but this is the only order he can give. Even if the enemy is destroyed you cannot order these 6 tanks to move. (You can keep ordering them to fire as long as you pass the roll)

3) Order all 9 to move and fire, but once again this is the only order he can issue(or repeat if sucsessful) for the rest of the turn,

d'oh, where is my edit button

option 3 gets the +1 of course.

at Toxic

Yep, that's what I thought as well..

Lonnie - that's not a bad idea. I'll try it.

Getting back to ATGW Opportunity fire, the book states that inactive players conducting opportunity fire, open fire after the active player fires.

In my gaming circle, the return Opp fire against ATGW units has always been after missile hit/save/suppression rolls have been made.

If there is another reason not to choose ATGW units in your force; i.e. the risk that Opp fire will kill/suppress the firing unit before its had a chance to affect its target, to go with only firing once per turn and its high points cost, no-ones going to bother using them.

However, I don't think it is that unrealistic to suppress/kill ATGW units as part of opportunity fire, but it will have to be tempered with an appropriate house rule.

Something like allowing Opp fire at firing ATGW units only if target is more than half range away, reflecting the long flight time of missiles with 150-200cm range, maybe?

This should probably only work for wire-guided or beam-riding missiles; such as Sagger and TOW, but I'm sure in previous discussions about ATGW when you start differentiating between guidance systems you over-complicate the game and slow it down.

But maybe thats what wanting to do anti-operator Opp fire at ATGW units is doing anyway!

Dedicated ATGW is pretty pants for the cost, as you describe it's can be suppress/killed before it hits and only fires once per turn, and only versus hard targets.

It's also even more pants once composite/ERA becomes common and it loses the 'no save' ability.

All that said, I'd see a really simple change making it viable - remove the single fire action restriction for dedicated ATGW units, on the assumption they have the training time and ammo supply to keep up the firing tempo...

I play 73 Arab Israeli mostly, so ATGW is relatively limited? That said we play it that all firing is resolved before opp fire, as cueball says. Mitigating against modern missiles being negated by operator suppression or kills during flight is the fact that several incorporate IR seekers for guidance onto the target in their terminal phase, hence it's just too late! But, this would require a detailed breakdown of missiles by type of control. Perhaps a house rule too far? Where's my copy of Challenger gone?

Sell you one ?

ianS