The Commander Series Forum

Hi.

On page 24 it is written that ATGW may not be fired across water or power lines. Considering 'water" - does ponds, rivers, marshes count to that statement, or it is only about larger water areas like seas, oceans, lakes?

And what about helicopters firing ATGW? Is that rule in effect?

Cheers
Thomas

It does count for all water, yes.

No idea about helicopters, but they are probably OK.

But which missiles are exempt from this, we play it that HOT are not effected becasue of no command wire problems.

Basically, if it is wire-guided, then it is affected. No wires, not affected.

Understand that bit, but is there a list of missiles that are laser/tv/radio command?

And as to the SS-12, I would have thought that these would have had insulated wires?

Yes SS-11 is 1st Gen wire guided, needs to be manually flown.

IanS

I think the rule is mainly in place to help limit the punch ATGMs in a game.

Not having fired one, is the reel in the back of the missile or in the launcher of a ATGW?

IIRC the wire for Milan was 0.4mm diameter platinum on a bobbin in the missile rear

That makes sense as if the reel was in the launcher, the missile would drag it along the ground and break the wires..d'oh

Lonnie. Actually, no - otherwise the missile would still drag the launcher along! It's just very smooth, light and very very expensive! To what extent you can't fire over water in reality I'm not sure. Would a 2 ft wide stream knacker it - probably not - but where to draw the line?

Hi.
Similar questions about howitzer (H) ability.

1. On page 21 it states that vehicles armed with howitzers may only fire at AFV's within half-distance. And what about Inf Upgrades like ie RPG-7 which has 6/40(H). Does so upgraded infantry fires to AFV's within half-distance too, or full distance?
2. What is the point of howitzer full distance? It seems that on full distance howitzer can fire only to soft targets except infantry, right?
3. Am I right that all inf upgrades units with howitzer ability are IATW?
4. Does the helicopters count as AFV's or doesn't? They can be the target of IATW which have (H) ability.

Sorry for a mess in questions

Cheers
Thomas

I think Thomas may be correct as the rules are written on point 2. However, I think the half range effect should only apply to (H) weapons firing at armoured targets NOT at all targets with a save.

Howiters are pretty good at firing at infantry. I would explain the half range effect for IATWs as reflecting the difficulty of getting the precise targetting you need to take out a tank. An RPG lobbed into the middle of a bunch of infantry can afford to be less fussy.

Or am I wrong?

Thomas, re. point 1 above - I think IATW can fire on AFVs at up to their full range as the relevant rule on page 21 specifically states “*vehicles* armed with howitzers…may only fire at AFVs within half distance” (my emphasis). They don’t get a bonus for firing at up to half range however.

I assumed that RPG types with (H) only fire at 1/2 distance. Otherwise an RPG can out range the vehicle MG! RPGs are notoriously innacurate things. Great at up to 100m, very poor after that, hence they become almost "area" weapons and the H rule?

atCounterpane:
"...armoured targets NOT at all targets with a save"
- In my opinion every target which has a save value is armoured target, isn't it? That is the point of a save value, itself, am I right?
"Howitzers are pretty good at firing at infantry"
- Yes they are, and that's why I'm asking about inf upgrades with Howitzer ability. Do they count as IATW? Because if they do, then you can't shoot at infantry. And if they don't WHAT IS IATW then?

atstu dew
"I think IATW can fire on AFVs at up to their full range"
- Ok there is no problem then, BUT in such case please define "IATW". I'm asking about it in 3rd question.

atDr Dave
"I assumed that RPG types with (H) only fire at 1/2 distance"
I get your point, but stu dew has right about vehicles mounted howitzers too. That's why I'm asking my questions.

I think it is some weird circle like "if... then... but if... then..." etc.
It think it should be like this: decrease the range of all RPG types Inf upgrades (i.e. half-distance), erase the (H) ability and treat them almost like ATGW; poor ATGW but still IATW. If RPG types Inf upgrades count as IATW they have almost the same abilities as ATGW. Compare for example RPG-7/16 (6/40 (H)) to ATGW, Saxhorn (6/50) from the Soviet army list. Small difference in range (10cm only), but same abilities, same attack. And now look on cost... Saxhorn is over 3 times then RPG... More on that Saxhorn has only 5 hits, when RPG would have 6 hits since it's Inf Upgrade! Thank you then, but now I'll pick 3 RPG's with total of 18 attacks, rather than 1 Saxhorn.
I think that right now the (H) ability affect on understanding the rules. Don't you think? And what do you think about my idea?

Cheers
Thomas

PS. Sorry if I wrote something stupid or not understandable. And I'm still waiting for answers to my questions

Thomas, in answer to your question ‘what counts as an IATW?’ they are those things in the army lists which, in the ‘Troops’ column show ‘Infantry Upgrade’ followed by a parenthetical weapon title. See also the ‘Upgrade’ entry in the ‘Arm of Service’ table on page 52.

Any IATW (RPG, LAW, CGustav, etc... - not ATGW) and that has a (H) should only fire at AFVs at 1/2 range. Is that the basics of the ruling?

vehile mounted howitzers might be different since they would have a much higher muzzle velocity?

“Is that the basics of the ruling?”

No Dave, the opposite is the case. As written the rules specifically (and solely) restrict vehicle mounted (H) graded weapons to firing on AFVs at half range or less. See the final paragraph on page 21.

So what is the range of an RPG7 fired at an AFV. Is it 40(H), or just 20?

stu dew - I can see your point about the wording of the paragraph on p.21 but...

Why have the (H) after all the rpg if they are being excluded from the effects of the howitzer ruling?

I play it that the rpg/iatw is half range against AFV and full range for buildings, softskins etc, bunkers etc.

Otherwise rpg seem far too good at long range - especially given the rule that you don't get armour saves against them (p.24)

So I'd say rpg-7 range against afv is 20.
Guy

“Why have the (H) after all the rpg if they are being excluded from the effects of the howitzer ruling?”

Because there are two consequences to a weapon being graded (H):

1) Not gaining a bonus to firing at half range or less,

and

2) Being restricted to firing on AVFs at half range or less.

As the relevant passage is written IATWs would only suffer the first restriction.

I think there are two questions here:

A) What do the rules say? (As this thread is in the ‘Rules Queries’ sub-forum it’s worth thrashing out and getting it clear just as a clarification. Also it gives Pete a chance, if he’s so inclined to offer a “what it should say/mean is…” type caveat. In that he hasn’t we must assume he said what he meant.)

and

B) What would you/I/he/they have them say? (As has been said many times elsewhere, one should feel free to amend the rules for ones own use as one sees fit. I have some sympathy with the idea that not restricting IATW to half range against AFVs too is a bit counter-intuitive. Perhaps it’s worth a thread in the ‘House Rules’ sub-forum?)

Stu.

P.S. Sorry for thread hijack Thomas.

Mark ever carried one of the f***ing things, 15 kg for weapon, 10 kg for each round, + SLR + 80 rnds + 50 rnd belt. No for foot moblie warfre 3 is the LIMIT. As to rnages, C.G. at 400/800 in theory, and try to fire from defilade. (TA Platoon Commandres course Warminster 1974 ?)

IanS

Stu-
I read the howitzers paragraph on p.21 as all one

'Vehicles armed with howitzers (indicated by the letter 'H' after the attacks) may only fire at AFVs within half-distance. They do not get the bonus for being within half range.'
As written

I guess the crux is whether 'They' in the last sentence refers to the subject of the preceding sentence: 'vehicles armed with howitzers', or the subject of the paragraph, 'howitzers'.

If it is all one piece then I don’t see why the ‘H’ on infantry support weapons.

I can see that your interpretation would explain the ‘H’ is on infantry supports without introducing the ½ range for IATWs. But normal English usage is for an undefined subject to refer to the last defined one... 'they'= 'vehicles armed with howitzers'. Which doen't help

But I remain unclear whether the vehicles comment is deliberately excluding IATW or is an oversight.

At which point I have to fall back on your two questions:

’A- What do the rules say?' And the answer here is I'm afraid I'm not sure: they say vehicle mounted howitzers fire at half range and don't get a bonus, and are silent on why IATWs have 'H' marking, which brings us on to...

'B - What would you/I/he/they have them say?'...

and I find the idea of a 40cm range rpg difficult to swallow, and distorting from a game point of view.

So for me ‘H’ on IATW means ½ range vs AFV, full range vs buildings and softskins.

As for hijacking Thomas' thread - I don't think you/I need to apologise - I think he raised the IATW issue himself on 9 March

Guy

So he did...I withdraw the apology

So it looks like one of three things:

1)Both restrictions should apply equally to all (H) graded weapons and the specific reference to vehicle mounted howitzers is an error needing correction via the errata.

2)Vehicle mounted howitzers suffer both restrictions whilst other (H) graded weapons only get the no +1 at half range or less bit.

3)Vehicle mounted howitzers suffer both restrictions whilst other (H) graded weapons are subject to neither which, obviously, begs the question as to why they were so graded in the first place.

Can you chip in here Pete?

"As for hijacking Thomas' thread - I don't think you/I need to apologise - I think he raised the IATW issue himself on 9 MarchGrin"
"So he did...I withdraw the apology Grin "
I think I'm not following you... Is that an insult?

I'm reading your posts, and trying to figure them out. I think that rule of firing to vehicles from vehicles mounted howitzers and IATW with (h) indicator is quite good. I have to test it.

Cheers
Thomas